Japanese scientists develop vaccine to eliminate cells behind aging • Hacker News Board

Re: Japanese scientists develop vaccine to eliminate cells behind aging

#221

Post by ncmncm » Sun, Dec 12, 2021, 10:55 PM UTC

DeWilde wrote: post #142

progman32 wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's debate the merit of the poster's argument instead of casting labels around. Do you think there's no scope for medical exemptions for vaccine requirements? High blood sugar is dangerous, and the OP specifically said: > blood sugar spikes greatly worsen my health. I'm curious what the condition is, and if there's mitigations available or if one vaccine is worse than the other.

It worsens my health by increasing the amount of insulin my body secretes and if pushed too high this can cause type 2 diabetes. Other side effects include cysts and cystic acne. The amount these occurred after both shots was pretty high and the occurrence was pretty persistent for two months after each shot (AZ with 3 months in-between shot). While both times I had Covid, before and after the vaccine, my insulin sta…

I wonder if you already eliminated fructose from your diet.

Re: Japanese scientists develop vaccine to eliminate cells behind aging

#222

Post by robbedpeter » Sun, Dec 12, 2021, 11:03 PM UTC

ColFrancis wrote: post #206

sumedh wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They'd work So less jobs for young people.

Jobs shouldn't be a limited resource.

Jobs creating wagon wheels are a limited resource.

As humans are able to automate activities that span the creation of everything we find valuable, from resource collection to manufacture to transportation to design to art, that necessarily limits the economic efficiency of using humans for labor. The last 3 years have demonstrated that creative tasks are highly susceptible to automation, with most artistic automation approaching or exceeding human performance as proofs of concept. The next decades will see an ever decreasing landscape of activities where humans are more effective than software.

Jobs are endeavors defined around the exchange of money for labor. It does not make sense to pay more money for less effective labor - i.e. if I can pay $30k usd for a burger flipper robot, I won't have to pay for 2 full time burger flipper jobs. It makes no sense to hire people for labor that can be automated.

We're a long ways away from being able to automate everything, but the trend is clear. Jobs don't make sense under our current technological path. We either have to eliminate progress in that direction and artificially enforce a human preference job efficiency limit so as to maintain a "sufficient" number of jobs, or start exploring new economic models that let us transition to post-scarcity economics.

We are, however, going to see a time where anything humans can do, machines will do better. Using humans will be inefficient, and companies will be out competed if they don't automate. We can either prepare for that and try to make things fair, or assume new jobs will arise that will make meaningful enterprises available to people through innovation and novel opportunities that haven't yet been conceived. It seems clear to me that the latter is basically invention of make work, and we need to prepare for post scarcity.

We don't need agi. We have Moore's law and "good enough" algorithms to achieve human parity performance. We should figure out a better measure of the value of human time than jobs and employment.

Re: Japanese scientists develop vaccine to eliminate cells behind aging

#223

Post by q1w2 » Sun, Dec 12, 2021, 11:05 PM UTC

obblekk wrote: post #194

1. Removing senescent cells extends life by 30-40% with huge quality of life improvements in the last 25% of the life (relative to control), in mice. This isn't an elimination of all aging, but quite a valuable thing regardless. Eventually, other causes of aging would kick in and still cause death, without a single senescent cell in your body (e.g. DNA methylation). 2. I believe all governments should create Warpspee…

This is essentially creating an auto-immune disease in old age - by having the body target it's own cells. It's also not clear how the researchers prevented the immune cells from dying in the Thymus (who's function is specifically to prevent immune cells from being coded to attack cells in the body - it's like a UAT environment).

...but the bigger question would be - If this protein encoded a protein that identified cells which should always be eliminated in old age; why hasn't any mammal evolved to start destroying them?

It's more likely that there is some trade-off which we have not discovered yet.

Re: Japanese scientists develop vaccine to eliminate cells behind aging

#224

Post by haxiomic » Sun, Dec 12, 2021, 11:09 PM UTC

q1w2 wrote: post #223

obblekk wrote: post #194

1. Removing senescent cells extends life by 30-40% with huge quality of life improvements in the last 25% of the life (relative to control), in mice. This isn't an elimination of all aging, but quite a valuable thing regardless. Eventually, other causes of aging would kick in and still cause death, without a single senescent cell in your body (e.g. DNA methylation). 2. I believe all governments should create Warpspee…

This is essentially creating an auto-immune disease in old age - by having the body target it's own cells. It's also not clear how the researchers prevented the immune cells from dying in the Thymus (who's function is specifically to prevent immune cells from being coded to attack cells in the body - it's like a UAT environment). ...but the bigger question would be - If this protein encoded a protein that identified…

I think there’s plenty of room for life extension

Evolution doesn’t optimise for length of life, just propagation. A number of species have evolved to have very short life cycles because that enabled greater propagation. Presumably shorter lives generally confer greater adaptability as it increases the opportunity for evolutionary change

Re: Japanese scientists develop vaccine to eliminate cells behind aging

#225

Post by johnisgood » Sun, Dec 12, 2021, 11:12 PM UTC

JohnJamesRambo wrote: post #2

Sign me up for this the second it is available. As an aside, to spite anti vaxxers I’m on a mission to get every vaccine I can. I want my bloodstream to be like the Library at Alexandria before it burned down.

Why would you poke your immune system unnecessarily just to spite other people? Strange.

Re: Japanese scientists develop vaccine to eliminate cells behind aging

#226

Post by labster » Sun, Dec 12, 2021, 11:12 PM UTC

haxiomic wrote: post #224

q1w2 wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is essentially creating an auto-immune disease in old age - by having the body target it's own cells. It's also not clear how the researchers prevented the immune cells from dying in the Thymus (who's function is specifically to prevent immune cells from being coded to attack cells in the body - it's like a UAT environment). ...but the bigger question would be - If this protein encoded a protein that identified…

I think there’s plenty of room for life extension Evolution doesn’t optimise for length of life, just propagation. A number of species have evolved to have very short life cycles because that enabled greater propagation. Presumably shorter lives generally confer greater adaptability as it increases the opportunity for evolutionary change

Evolution can optimize for longer lifespans if it makes propagation more favorable. It happened in humans — grandparents make us more successful. Except when they run our governments.

Re: Japanese scientists develop vaccine to eliminate cells behind aging

#227

Post by johnisgood » Sun, Dec 12, 2021, 11:13 PM UTC

mikotodomo wrote: post #138

mensetmanusman wrote: post #12

For the sake of discussion, which age would you want to pause at? 16, 24 for insurance reasons?

At 35. It's well known that human brain development does not end until past 30. Even before scientifically proven, intellectuals and teachers have observed anecdotes such as that singing only can begun to be mastered around the age 35. From Lilli Lehmann's How to Sing, page 108 (originally authored in the late 1800s): "No woman of less than twenty-four years should sing soubrette parts, none of less than twenty-eight…

35 does sound like a great age to pause at.

Re: Japanese scientists develop vaccine to eliminate cells behind aging

#228

Post by satisfaction » Sun, Dec 12, 2021, 11:16 PM UTC

labster wrote: post #226

haxiomic wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there’s plenty of room for life extension Evolution doesn’t optimise for length of life, just propagation. A number of species have evolved to have very short life cycles because that enabled greater propagation. Presumably shorter lives generally confer greater adaptability as it increases the opportunity for evolutionary change

Evolution can optimize for longer lifespans if it makes propagation more favorable. It happened in humans — grandparents make us more successful. Except when they run our governments.

We need to evolve past the point where we expect to rely on government.

Re: Japanese scientists develop vaccine to eliminate cells behind aging

#229

Post by gumby » Sun, Dec 12, 2021, 11:20 PM UTC

obblekk wrote: post #194

1. Removing senescent cells extends life by 30-40% with huge quality of life improvements in the last 25% of the life (relative to control), in mice. This isn't an elimination of all aging, but quite a valuable thing regardless. Eventually, other causes of aging would kick in and still cause death, without a single senescent cell in your body (e.g. DNA methylation). 2. I believe all governments should create Warpspee…

> I believe all governments should create Warpspeed for this approach.

What would that mean in practice?

Re: Japanese scientists develop vaccine to eliminate cells behind aging

#230

Post by Consultant32452 » Sun, Dec 12, 2021, 11:24 PM UTC

haxiomic wrote: post #224

q1w2 wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is essentially creating an auto-immune disease in old age - by having the body target it's own cells. It's also not clear how the researchers prevented the immune cells from dying in the Thymus (who's function is specifically to prevent immune cells from being coded to attack cells in the body - it's like a UAT environment). ...but the bigger question would be - If this protein encoded a protein that identified…

I think there’s plenty of room for life extension Evolution doesn’t optimise for length of life, just propagation. A number of species have evolved to have very short life cycles because that enabled greater propagation. Presumably shorter lives generally confer greater adaptability as it increases the opportunity for evolutionary change

Evolution does optimize longevity in at least one way.

Chromosomes have a limited number of telomeres, each time the cell divides the telomeres become shorter. If your cell runs out of telomeres it can't divide anymore. This is one of the primary mechanisms the body balances repair against cancer risk. Current max of human life is about 120. If you don't "solve" the telomere problem you are not going to extend life past 120, though you may have more people live that long and may improve quality of life in later years.

Our species has a good balance that lets us live well past reproduction age, presumably because there is evolutionary pressure (benefit) to having elderly people around to pass on knowledge, help raise grandchildren, etc.

You can do things that extend the telomeres, but that makes cells more likely to reproduce out of control (cancer). This is a very hard "problem" to solve because cell final death is so important in preventing cancer. We are not even close to solving this, it would require revolutionary biological understanding.