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Professional maintainers: a wake-up call

blog.filippo.io

171–180 of 464 posts

Re: Professional maintainers: a wake-up call

#171

As a maintainer of several OSS projects, I could work full time on them and have time for nothing else. Yet, I'm pretty sure that even if these projects would be 100x more popular, the donations I would receive wouldn't even pay my daily expenses. I refuse all donations/tips for three reasons: - as per above, your donation is generally insignificant. it's just overhead in tax accounting - people donate "with strings…

> - receiving donations wouldn't be fair to any current or past contributors that made the projects what it is

Hard disagree on that. Maintaining (bug triage, pull requests review, bug fixes…) is actually the hard work and the part that deserve the reward IMO.

When I contribute to an open source software to fix a bug/add a feature, my reward is that the software I use has an annoying bug gone/the feature I want. I don’t need any reward. On the other hand, the thankless maintainer deserve it.

Re: Professional maintainers: a wake-up call

#172
It would certainly help if the IRS did something to encourage open source. You can donate a work of art to a museum for a deduction but you can't donate 20 hours of labor. The IRS is deliberately becoming more strict [1] so many current non-profit software foundations e.g. Apache are actually the exception to the rule.

Re: Professional maintainers: a wake-up call

#173
post #161
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Given this situation, why will they pay for what they can get for free? See the article...

I was responding to the parent comment not the article. The article makes great point. It essentially talks about a services and support business around open source. Some have been doing this for decades. When you have contracts and support at a cost you aren't doing the work for free. The article is talking about running open source like a business rather than a volunteer situation. That means, you're not doing ever…

> It essentially talks about a services and support business around open source.

Which is _exactly_ what we are doing...

Re: Professional maintainers: a wake-up call

#174
post #104
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You need a proper "asshole" in such organizations that will go and threaten complete lack of support if the bill isn't paid. That's the point, they don't pay, and they don't get support. But they still complain when there is a major CVE. > For comparison, $1M is the total yearly cost of ~3 average engineers at FAANGs. I wish we got that...

1) Create a funding report newsletter for FFMPEG 2) When funding is low, big scary exclamation marks all over the place 3) Include a bulleted list of doomsday scenarios showing what could happen to YOU if a bug/vulnerability is found 4) Add a picture of a sad kitten or crying baby for good measure Now just subscribe all of the non-tech business people at organizations that use FFMPEG, and wait for them to panic. (Mak…

>Now just subscribe all of the non-tech business people at organizations

Ah, if only one could "just" get a mass of people's attention and send the message

Re: Professional maintainers: a wake-up call

#175
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So, large SV companies and startup should also start agreeing to pay for open source, when it's the core of the tech. Companies usually have a reason to keep their expenses low. Sometimes they are a public company with fiscal responsibilities. A startup will only have so much runway and is likely trying to reduce expenses. Given this situation, why will they pay for what they can get for free?

It seems like you haven't quite got the concept of open source. If everybody consumes and nobody contributes, how long will that last? A while back I bought a cheap robot vacuum. Their scheduling feature didn't meet my needs, so I reverse-engineered the protocol and open-sourced a cron-friendly CLI tool and a library so people could do other things with it: https://github.com/wpietri/sucks Honestly, this was a mistak…

>> Given this situation, why will they pay for what they can get for free?

> If everybody consumes and nobody contributes, how long will that last?

That doesn't answer the GP question, which is all about incentives.

The answer is, at least some parties won't pay for what they can get for free. So the options are:

a) deal with it

b) require payment

c) come up with some way to incentivize more donations

Re: Professional maintainers: a wake-up call

#176
post #42

Once upon a time, the best way to get a software job was to demonstrate your ability to build useful open source projects. 10 years ago the Principal Engineers I would work with had super sized open source portfolio's which leant them both credibility and experience building products people liked. Junior devs would search (sometimes in vain) for issues where they could contribute a few PRs Now the best way to get a j…

This might sound weird, but I find every time someone publishes or contributes open source, they are stealing value from me, because it is one less thing that a company will need me to implement, build and maintain for them, instead they'll now expect me to simply use the existing free of charge open source one. Not only does it feel like I'm stolen value, open source work tends to be the most interesting, and as mor…

That's a good point. We as developers trying to make a living doing it are competing with an ever-expanding sea of OSS. And therefore we'd be mad to contribute to it, for free even.

On the other hand, from the viewpoint of all of humanity, it is great that there exists a huge amount of software that is useable by everyone for free.

Re: Professional maintainers: a wake-up call

#177
There's a whole old elephant in the room, but we're not really talking about it because it's an elephant everyone loves to hate. And yet.

This is a model that MPAA and RIAA use. And their equivalents in countries that have functional copyright legislation. Most first world countries have one. Don't get me wrong, they are mostly rent-seeking racketeers, but if you try to weasel out of paying for stuff you're using for your own profit, you're bound to get one.

Either some law pertaining to maintenance of "digital commonwealth" or some other nice name is passed in enough countries so other countries have to follow suit if they want to be in good company, and organizations with teeth, one per country, are set up to make sure the "digital commonwealth" tax is collected from everyone, big and small. They will even distribute money among creators, by usage or something.

Microsoft would probably love to be such an arbiter. They have Github. They have all the stats. They know if your company had been naughty or nice, how many times they downloaded your stuff, and how many times their employees were demanding shit in issues. It's child's game to join the party, just have an account with them.

Or we just piggyback on the existing copyright legislation and give RIAA and their likes more power and custody of making sure OSS maintainers don't starve. They will surely protect their interest with eagerness, who wouldn't like more profit?

Of course, companies will try to fight tooth and claw. They will tell you all sorts of doomsday scenarios, how the poor megacorporations won't be able to afford it, how they will have to raise your subscription fees. Gee, haven't we seen those crocodile tears when free roaming in EU was going to be established? We also know how it ended: they all sucked it up, complied, maybe their profits took... well... not a hit, but a nudge maybe. Companies who have to buy music know how to pay the music tax to copyright racketeers. They will get used to that.

They will also be happy to pay just one entity and be done with it. And if you dare start a company using F/OSS, you're in for the largest financial hit. The little man always suffers the most in such schemes.

Re: Professional maintainers: a wake-up call

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This might sound weird, but I find every time someone publishes or contributes open source, they are stealing value from me, because it is one less thing that a company will need me to implement, build and maintain for them, instead they'll now expect me to simply use the existing free of charge open source one. Not only does it feel like I'm stolen value, open source work tends to be the most interesting, and as mor…

I can understand the perspective. But it goes both ways: Aren't you (and I) 'stealing'? How much do you use open source, as a developer and as a user - and just to post his message: try enmuerating all the open source that goes into it. We benefit far more than we can ever repay.

We benefit far more than we can repay, but "stealing" is too strong. It's what the author who adopted an open source license explicitly intended to allow.

Re: Professional maintainers: a wake-up call

#179
post #94
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need a proper "asshole" in such organizations that will go and threaten complete lack of support if the bill isn't paid. Of course there is a lot more detail in such negotiations, but the fact is that he/she will be facing similar "assholes" from the side of the copros. The entire thing is essentially just a game of standard capitalism. You have to know how to play that game, though. FFmpeg should be able to pull…

> You need a proper "asshole" in such organizations that will go and threaten complete lack of support if the bill isn't paid. That's the point, they don't pay, and they don't get support. But they still complain when there is a major CVE. > For comparison, $1M is the total yearly cost of ~3 average engineers at FAANGs. I wish we got that...

> That's the point, they don't pay, and they don't get support. But they still complain

You've put your finger on the core of the issue with FiloSottile's suggestion. The problem is that to sell something to a big corporation, you need to have something tangible you can sell. What you have are enormous pieces of widely used software, being given away for free. Many companies are going to take that and run with it, and forgo a support contract entirely. You may argue that they want support when there's an issue, but the truth is they're happy enough with the status quo and just complaining a lot.

In FiloSottile's model, a corporation needs to use your software for something specific, but also expects to need changes to it or prioritized issue support and approaches you; you send them an invoice with five zeroes on it as a bill for your services and they are heavily incentivized to pay for it.

Unfortunately that's not the reality for 99.9% of open source maintainers, a figure that includes most creators of popular software like VLC. I've personally contributed to a bunch of projects and maintain some of my own, but it's a hobby. As far as I know no corporations are even using any of them. Figuring out some software niche that no one yet has a product it, building it, and waiting for a corporation to swoop in and drop me a six figure yearly check cannot be a career strategy.

Re: Professional maintainers: a wake-up call

#180
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to mention the person in Berlin has access to state funded medical support, a state funded pension, paid sick leave, paid ma/paternity leave, ... Salaries are lower, but expenses for essential services are simply A LOT less in most of Europe.

Tech companies also pay for health insurance, sick leave, and ma/pa leave. Sure pensions aren't a big thing, but increased savings from increased salary can make up for that (not to mention 401k).

> pay for health insurance

Have cancer, or a premature baby with 90 days in Neonatal Intensive Care, in the USA, and get back to me on your health insurance.

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