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Ten years of experience, still failing phone screens

kevin.burke.dev

251–260 of 340 posts

Re: Ten years of experience, still failing phone screens

#251
post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For example: The idea that there are many programmers who cannot even write fizzbuzz sounds like a very strong claim. It seems far more likely that there are many programmers who have socially-induced anxiety.

It's entirely believable that many programmers couldn't write fizzbuzz without searching Google in the days before it was universally memorised. The modulo operator is somewhat rare in real code and is defined slightly differently in different languages.

> The modulo operator is somewhat rare in real code

Even if a candidate didn't know that modulo even existed they could still get the remainder with simple division and subtraction. Modulo might be slightly different depending on the language, but for fizzbuzz that's not important and most likely not what you're expected to know in such an interview question. And while it is not the most common operator it is still one of the most basic ones and present in all languages you'd use during a job interview.

Re: Ten years of experience, still failing phone screens

#252

> Coderpad must work for some people since companies are able to hire a nonzero number of engineers, but it is definitely not a good fit for me. Seems everywhere I've applied recently has been using Coderpad. Lately I've been accepting interview requests for principle roles from on-site recruiters, and I've been consistently rejected after these Coderpad tech screens. What's bugging me, however, is the "challenges" h…

I've never done this, but you might consider getting an experienced interviewer to do a mock interview with you (of the same sort you've breezed through before). It might be a coincidence that you have been rejected multiple times, or it might be some small behavioral thing that someone could tell you about.

Alternatively, you can say "screw this," and I wouldn't blame you.

Re: Ten years of experience, still failing phone screens

#253
post #233
post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who was born before the moon landing and saw one of the last IMPs get installed on the ARPANET, yeah that was offensive. You should apologize. Knowing to silence your phone in meetings is a matter of having manners, not age.

Just as no-one would begrudge a dominated race from poking fun at the dominant race, I don't see why you are so on your high horse about the dominant age group getting the same. 'Punching up' is fair game where I come from. I'm afraid I just don't get your outrage at an innocent comment poking fun at the most dominant section of society. But, as you're the second person to have taken offence, I'm going to delete it a…

Ah yes, racial humor. That will never fail you in business provided you deliver it the appropriate way. Good luck with your interviews, you’re going to do great!

Re: Ten years of experience, still failing phone screens

#254
post #2

This post ought to be the final nail on the coffin of the cult of leetcode/whiteboard style inverviewing. Just looking at this guy's repo and his writing style -- you'd be foolish to waste his time or yours on leetcode-style hazing. Your conversation should be strictly high-level. If you must, pick a file at random from one his larger projects, and ask a few straightforward quetions ("I'm new to Go - can you explain…

Your post ought to be ample proof that subjective opinions (like the one you display here) are not solid grounds for hiring decisions.

When looking at this person's Github page, I -unlike you- see a vast number of trivial projects that can best be described as regurgitations of other people's work. Even worse, if you actually look at his first pinned project (https://github.com/kevinburke/nacl), you'll see that it is nothing but a wrapper with trivial changes/updates... an anti-project.

In the end, I see code that provides the illusion of competence but, when actually inspected, is actually telling me not to hire this person. The fact that pretty much anyone can declare oneself "a software engineer" today and easily present a veneer of competence together with powerful financial incentives, makes it absolutely necessary for any serious engineering team to have objective measures in place in order to evaluate candidates.

There are so many terrible engineers out there (and some even slip through the cracks and land at places like FAANG) that doing anything less is irresponsible.

Re: Ten years of experience, still failing phone screens

#255
The secret to these is to not play the game. If you send me to a website like coderpad I'll just say thanks but no thanks. If my code portfolio and extensive experience isn't enough to get me to talk to one of your real engineers and find out what I know (that I'm not bullshitting) then we should both stop wasting our time and you can find someone else.

Re: Ten years of experience, still failing phone screens

#256
post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To Joel Spolsky's defense, leet code questions where probably a great idea for him, when it was not an industry wide thing. He also had this, what seems to me, nightmarish, dev. speed and progress estimation tracking app he made. I don't remember what blog post, but he described it and jokingly wrote that Lisa needed to get the speed up, or something. Fast forward to today and it is a predecessor to our agile nightma…

I remember when he made that post ("Evidence Based Scheduling"), and was also appalled. Yet, here we are today and programmer velocity is a now a measured metric in Agile. https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2007/10/26/evidence-based-sch...

Oh ye thank you that is the one.

The general problem with Scrum like velocity tracking is that devs will start to lie to hit the estimates to keep the commissars of their backs. The best liar gets the straightest graph. And as devs learns to lie, you get the impression of improved estimation.

"Some developers (like Milton in this picture) may be causing problems because their ship dates are so uncertain: they need to work on learning to estimate better."

I mean ... why God. I don't know but maybe poor Milton has the hardest tasks, does not cut corners or what not. Brandon seems to "get it" and has silly narrow error range - I wonder how ...

(I am not bitter. Pinky swear)

Re: Ten years of experience, still failing phone screens

#257
I was in agreement with most of the article, but the final footnote came out of left field for me:

  7. I have a bunch of ideas around testing how quickly and how accurately people can type, or accurately transcribe text from a second screen, that I think could be decent predictors of job performance but I'm not sure are fair to test out in a professional context without academic research that could validate them at least a little bit.
Can anyone explain how including such a thing in an interview is relevant at all?

Re: Ten years of experience, still failing phone screens

#258
post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard to get meaningful answers to these really general properties you're after: > communicate well This has so many elements and is really only fully visible after you work with someone for a while. Sure you'll catch some red flag issues, but such issues likely to be caught are also likely to be caught no matter what you're talking about, so this can't be the primary purpose of the screen. > motivations for look…

I think you and I probably agree on much of, this so take all this as discussion, not argument... that being said -- Wanting to trade services for money is not enough. Everyone wants that. But good candidates want more nuance to it. More autonomy, more meaningful work, more leadership. Or less of all those things. If I just need a code monkey who will crank out the tasks, I don't want a visionary tech lead. I may wan…

Right, I think we're probably in agreement on a lot too. I do think if you're looking for a specific thing (whether it's a code monkey, or a visionary, or someone that seems to have the potential to grow into someone amazing, or a Postgres expert who can help you solve your particular scaling issues right now and then go away) you should try and purpose your interviews for figuring out whether those things are present to sufficient degree, and ignore/deprioritize getting data on other things. Though I also think even with the large variety of roles that exist, they all need an ability to program and solve the types of problems that the business is working on and is likely to encounter, so this should be tested/verified as early as possible, and that a lot of people are fooling themselves in thinking they need much more than that or that the other things they claim to care about actually matter.

Consulting gigs (like the postgres expert) avoid a lot of the crazy interview nonsense, and a large part of that I think is that wanting to trade services for money is more than enough, but sure their limited tenure is another big factor and helps them from needing to buy into the company culture or whatever. But this precludes that the business knows what services they want to receive in exchange for money. And repeating myself, often businesses aren't even sure, or don't actually need much more beyond "can program competently for our use cases" (which doesn't mean code monkey). So much of the extra stuff that retrospectively becomes valuable and maybe even worth trying to find in the interview process is nevertheless so hard to find. Some companies claim to have found ways, e.g. here's tptacek's hiring post: https://sockpuppet.org/blog/2015/03/06/the-hiring-post/ Quoting the relevant part:

> A few years ago, Matasano couldn’t have hired Alex, because we relied on interviews and resumes to hire. Then we made some changes, and became a machine that spotted and recruited people like Alex: line of business .NET developers at insurance companies who pulled Rails core CVEs out of their first hour looking at the code. Sysadmins who hardware-reversed assembly firmware for phone chipsets. Epiphany: the talent is out there, but you can’t find it on a resume.

You also won't typically find those really bonus qualities on a phone screen. The approach of work-sample tests goes in a rather different direction than what we've been discussing, though it can also get rid of full-round interviews.

On the salary bit, I did say might, because you're right that if the compensation ranges are known upfront, and the candidate finds them too low, then it's typical they will filter themselves out before anything. So if that range is known before the phone screen, you don't really need to bring it up then. For those who don't filter themselves out, then they either don't have a compensation issue, again making it pointless to include in the phone screen time, or they do have an issue to some extent but have reason to try and go through the process anyway. The first reason I listed was because they think they can negotiate high enough beyond the range once they've secured a "we want you" spot, and they might try to further amplify this by mentioning a competing offer(s) from somewhere else. Obviously the greater the gap the less likely they are to actually entertain this, however they still might if they just plan to use you as the 'competing offer' to gain leverage elsewhere. I don't think this sort of thing can be reliably detected at phone screen time, so it's pointless to ask about it, but sure, it doesn't take much time to ask a probe like "are you interviewing elsewhere now?" which might help you be ready for some negotiation games later. But I think you should always be ready for those regardless.

For more depth into one mentality that might do this: there are all sorts of desires someone can have that aren't necessarily abundant in the broader opportunities out there (like specific niche technologies, or specific people you get to call coworkers (there's only one [insert programming idol]), or the product itself (there's only one [insert video game franchise]), or having a preference for non-remote and this being the main/only good opportunity in an unusual place you want to live). So if asked at some point before an offer is extended "is this salary range acceptable?", you might honestly answer "instant yes if it can reach higher by this much, I'll reallllly have to think about it if all I can get is the top of the range, but at the middle or low end it'd definitely be no even though I really want this rare property I can't easily find elsewhere." Such an honest answer is unwise strategically to give, though, precisely because the other side may consider such uncertainty as an immediate deal-breaker, and in the end after learning even more through the process your revealed preferences might lead you to saying yes even at the lower end of the range.

Re: Ten years of experience, still failing phone screens

#259
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What an ass. I wish there was a way to report bad interviewers. Maybe some tech media company will do hidden camera interviews and publish a scathing rebuke of the practice.

> I wish there was a way to report bad interviewers. You can always tell the recruiter/coordinator. It's just tricky because you don't want to burn bridges, doing it before you hear back could be read as you asking for a do-over, doing it after could come across as bitter.

We are hiring at my company. We ALWAYS value feedback. Last week we heard someone had a bad experience and the feedback was taken seriously, and without resentment.

If you have a good or bad experience, PLEASE consider telling the recruiter know.

Re: Ten years of experience, still failing phone screens

#260
post #257

I was in agreement with most of the article, but the final footnote came out of left field for me: 7. I have a bunch of ideas around testing how quickly and how accurately people can type, or accurately transcribe text from a second screen, that I think could be decent predictors of job performance but I'm not sure are fair to test out in a professional context without academic research that could validate them at le…

I assume the author thinks that would be a good proxy for some hard-to-measure quality, and is not actually aiming to hire the best typists because of their typing skills.

As for what that quality is, I don't see any hints there. It could be anything from general tech-mindedness to even basic diligence or who knows what.

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