Mount Athos, the “Autonomous Monastic State” of Greece (2016) • Hacker News Board

Re: Mount Athos, the “Autonomous Monastic State” of Greece (2016)

#151

Post by mitchbob » Sat, Dec 11, 2021, 2:38 AM UTC

At the end of the book The Broken Road [1], the great adventurer and writer Patrick Leigh Fermor writes about his stay on Mount Athos. This followed his 1930's journey, almost entirely on foot, from Holland down the Rhine and then along the Danube to Istanbul. The book and the two others about his trip are some of my all-time favorite bedtime reading.

There's more on Mount Athos on a website devoted to Fermor: [2]

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/09/books/review/patrick-leig... (Archived: https://archive.ph/uAM3B )

[2] https://patrickleighfermor.org/2011/04/30/mount-athos-a-visi...

Re: Mount Athos, the “Autonomous Monastic State” of Greece (2016)

#152

Post by Uehreka » Sat, Dec 11, 2021, 4:20 AM UTC

necovek wrote: post #147

joelmichael wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being better aligned with astronomical events makes it more correct. The purpose of the calendar is to map the year, the orbit of the Earth around the Sun. The drift in the Julian calendar was not intended. It is a flaw.

What about the drift in the Gregorian calendar? Solar day and tropical year do not have a least common multiple. Earth's rotation is — arguably — better measured against the stars, so a sidereal day is more "correct", yet it would not map to our daily routine at all. So I believe the question is not what is more "correct" (we've long established that we are dealing with approximations at best, Julian calendar include…

I mean the answer is pretty simple: Neither is perfect, but the Gregorian calendar is objectively more correct. It has a small amount of drift, but the drift is less than the Julian calendar. This also makes it more useful, because it will be able to predict solstices and equinoxes (and other dates needed for scheduling planting and harvesting of crops) more accurately than the Julian calendar. Its overwhelming dominance is evidence that not many people care about the ~2 weeks that disappeared a couple hundred years ago.

Re: Mount Athos, the “Autonomous Monastic State” of Greece (2016)

#153

Post by pyuser583 » Sat, Dec 11, 2021, 5:18 AM UTC

stavros wrote: post #124

makeitdouble wrote: post #21

BTW Greece moving into the EU meant they had to get a special ratified status to keep blocking women access (that would be illegal otherwise) https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?qid=15779940...

Which I'm not a fan of, but then again I'm not a fan of the church owning an entire peninsula.

The US Constitution begins with “We the People.”

The Greek Constitution begins with “In the name of the Holy and Consubstantial and Indivisible Trinity.”

If the EU is going to take counties as they are … this is how Greece is - a state with a very influential established church.

Re: Mount Athos, the “Autonomous Monastic State” of Greece (2016)

#154

Post by necovek » Sat, Dec 11, 2021, 7:04 AM UTC

Uehreka wrote: post #152

necovek wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about the drift in the Gregorian calendar? Solar day and tropical year do not have a least common multiple. Earth's rotation is — arguably — better measured against the stars, so a sidereal day is more "correct", yet it would not map to our daily routine at all. So I believe the question is not what is more "correct" (we've long established that we are dealing with approximations at best, Julian calendar include…

I mean the answer is pretty simple: Neither is perfect, but the Gregorian calendar is objectively more correct. It has a small amount of drift, but the drift is less than the Julian calendar. This also makes it more useful, because it will be able to predict solstices and equinoxes (and other dates needed for scheduling planting and harvesting of crops) more accurately than the Julian calendar. Its overwhelming domin…

You missed my point: where continuous dates are useful, it's ok not to care about two weeks of discrepancy even today. Basically, I am saying is that the biggest advantage of the Gregorian calendar today is its prevalance: all the other things matter less.

You also seem to be overstating the importance of exact dates when it comes to agriculture: my experience is that +-13 days does not make a practical difference, especially if it slowly accumulates (it's not like you would suddenly have to do the harvest 13 days later from one year to the next — you actuslly had to do it 10-13 days "early" once the calendar was switched, and it didn't make a difference even then).

If human civilization continued using the Julian calendar, we wouldn't have been any worse off: nothing points at it that we would have been. I am not saying that Gregorian calendar is "worse" at all (though those born on Feb 29 might beg to disagree when they go 8 years between birthdays 2096-2104 :)), just that where it's better does not matter much.

Re: Mount Athos, the “Autonomous Monastic State” of Greece (2016)

#155

Post by tsoukase » Sat, Dec 11, 2021, 11:49 AM UTC

Mt Athos has its own scandal: Esphigmenou Monastery [0], one of the most religiously fanatic places on earth. In short, the monks have seized the building for decades and deny any contact with anyone not heretic, while the official head lies in a safe place outside of Mt. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esphigmenou

Re: Mount Athos, the “Autonomous Monastic State” of Greece (2016)

#156

Post by isitdopamine » Sat, Dec 11, 2021, 12:56 PM UTC

stavros wrote: post #124

makeitdouble wrote: post #21

BTW Greece moving into the EU meant they had to get a special ratified status to keep blocking women access (that would be illegal otherwise) https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?qid=15779940...

Which I'm not a fan of, but then again I'm not a fan of the church owning an entire peninsula.

There are many peninsulas owned by rich people. Of course they get to decide who can enter. Are you against that as well?

Re: Mount Athos, the “Autonomous Monastic State” of Greece (2016)

#157

Post by isitdopamine » Sat, Dec 11, 2021, 12:58 PM UTC

NKosmatos wrote: post #148

cblconfederate wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> have no base whatsoever Gender segregated monasteries have existed since foreveer. Mt Athos is like one giant monastery in that sense. For religious people there is a base for gender segregation.

No problem with monasteries and gender restrictions of religions, but here we’re talking about a huge area (a peninsula)! We have similar restrictions for women in churches located in cities and these are generally accepted and followed, but only on “holly” grounds and not for large areas like Mt Athos.

There are so many peninsulas owned by rich people, and they get to choose who can enter. I don’t see a big difference here… It’s private, get over it!

Re: Mount Athos, the “Autonomous Monastic State” of Greece (2016)

#158

Post by isitdopamine » Sat, Dec 11, 2021, 1:00 PM UTC

sneak wrote: post #144

bobthechef wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're a victim of the biases and presumptions of your own egalitarian culture. There is a basis. Men and women are different and sexually complementary. One obvious reason is that the sexual tension and constant presence of people of the opposite sex (female orders exclude men also) and subsequent temptation and stirred concupiscence can be a distraction to the spiritual life. But the tendency for sex segregation oc…

The concept that sexual tension/activity and a spiritual life are at odds or mutually exclusive is itself a bias and presumption.

For most religions this is a well established fact.

As for every spiritual/faith decision you are free to think otherwise, but calling it a bias seems very ungenerous.

Re: Mount Athos, the “Autonomous Monastic State” of Greece (2016)

#159

Post by stavros » Sat, Dec 11, 2021, 1:31 PM UTC

isitdopamine wrote: post #156

stavros wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which I'm not a fan of, but then again I'm not a fan of the church owning an entire peninsula.

There are many peninsulas owned by rich people. Of course they get to decide who can enter. Are you against that as well?

Oh very much so.

Re: Mount Athos, the “Autonomous Monastic State” of Greece (2016)

#160

Post by Grustaf » Sat, Dec 11, 2021, 1:32 PM UTC

NKosmatos wrote: post #149

Grustaf wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are these "restrictions that have no base whatsoever"? Are you referring to "Christian men only"? Surely you can see the basis of a male monastery complex only allowing male Christian guests? Would you be equally upset at a Buddhist convent only allowing Buddhist women as guests?

No, the problem is not with the rules of the monasteries, but with the rules of our religion against women. There are no Greek Orthodox women priests, despite the fact that we have many women Saints! And just to be clear, I’m against all religions that are discriminating people and putting them into groups.

There are no "rules against women". As you note, women can be, and are Saints, which is of course a much greater honour than being a priest. In fact the most highly honoured saint (by a wide margin) is a woman, so clearly the church is not "against women".

Becoming a priest is not something you do for your own good, it's not a privilege, it's a calling. Priests exist for the good of society, not for priests themselves, you are viewing things backwards.