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Is Web3 anything?

chris-granger.com

391–400 of 442 posts

Re: Is Web3 anything?

#391
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your argument is that decentralized ledger technologies cannot in their current state or perhaps ever entirely replace governments then I guess any reasonable person will just have to give that to you. And I doubt as many "crypto evangelicals" would actually argue with you on this.

Right; distributed smart contracts complement legal systems, like a road network complements a rail network. Of course, that’s just the simple, “immutable logic” kind of smart contracts. The “updatable policy” kind of smart contracts are really just a way to encode and implement a legal system. (See: the regulation model in security tokens.)

I also think people complement smart contracts. The difficulty of building smart contracts makes me think people and human processes will be the glue that binds many of them together.

Re: Is Web3 anything?

#392
post #179
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Democracy solves the Byzantine agreement problem just fine already. That’s nice when you and your counterparty are part of the same democracy, or potentially allied ones. But how do you enforce contracts when your government and their government are at war? (The governments say “you shouldn’t; they’re the enemy.” Well, screw the governments, I want to make positive-sum trades in the hopes of increasing global GDP a…

You miss something, imagine a world where crypto is finally used to pay for services. How do you enforce that when you give an advance to your house builder so that he can start building and contracting out and paying his own people by the hours, that he wont build you something that eventually crumbles as soon as you open the door? Who enforces THAT ? Who care about decentralising, we need to centralize violent enfo…

In that case, you could enforce that some of the paid amount is locked and release over time so as to provide an incentive to build something not totally fucked up.

Re: Is Web3 anything?

#393
This sentence is key:

> This is ostensibly what the legal system provides, but anyone who’s actually tried to go through small claims court knows that the reality of that route is… painful. And it often ends unsatisfactorily

And it is in fact a key feature of the contemporary modern world: the people don't have a realistic access to court anymore, and this deeply undermines the legitimacy of the State.

This immediately reminded this article[1] which explained how the Taliban have rebuilt their power in Afghanistan in recent years, especially outside of their original ethnic group (Pashtuns): by appointing judges in every provinces, available for free, with no delay and hassle.

A quick DeepL translation of the most relevant part of the article:

> From a material point of view, these courts are rudimentary. The judges, dressed without distinctive signs, sit in village mosques, in private houses or under the cover of trees. “The Taliban courts operate in a very simple way, said one of them. The Taliban judge sits with a cup of green tea in front of him, he receives the requests in person. Then he calls a member of the movement and tells him to go and ask the people against whom a complaint has been filed to come the next day” The judges interview witnesses, examine the documents brought by the disputing parties, and render their verdict, often after a few days - at most a few months for the most sensitive cases. Most disputes concerned land or matrimonial matters, but judges also punished theft, murder and adultery, sometimes with very severe penalties (executions, amputations, stoning). […]

> The same motivation was found in a relative of Mr. Faizal Akbar, governor of Kounar province between 2002 and 2005. Despite his political opposition to the Taliban, he was forced to turn to them for a theft of cattle because, since the regime's judges were "corrupt," the costs of filing a complaint with the police and of an official trial would have far exceeded the value of the stolen cattle.

[1] https://www.monde-diplomatique.fr/2021/09/BACZKO/63487 (in French)

Re: Is Web3 anything?

#394
post #119
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Democracy solves the Byzantine agreement problem just fine already. That’s nice when you and your counterparty are part of the same democracy, or potentially allied ones. But how do you enforce contracts when your government and their government are at war? (The governments say “you shouldn’t; they’re the enemy.” Well, screw the governments, I want to make positive-sum trades in the hopes of increasing global GDP a…

In the thought experiment of a true anarchy, how do you ultimately enforce the off-chain part of a transaction? If BTC is traded for goods or services, how do you enforce that the goods and services have been sufficiently provided?

My thinking is that if the blockchain has sufficiently high fees and sufficiently high computational cost, then people have an incentive not to try to game it. That includes off-chain.

It leads to the question of what is the real purpose and utility of a distributed blockchain? If the blockchain can willy-nilly be gamed and won't be enforced, why have it?

Re: Is Web3 anything?

#395
post #231
post #9

All of the examples of having to trust the government in this article neglect the fact that trusting the government is not just trusting the government, and it’s not just the government storing a deed or giving you a Social Security Number that makes it real. It’s the whole complex web of laws and regulations that created these policies that make them real, and the people (your fellow citizens) who have collectively…

I'd also add that one of the big fallacies/deceits of blockchain is that it does not allow trustless transactions as the article author suggests, it simply shifts the trust. In the author's example of gathering funds to renovate a neighbourhood park, you'd still need to trust that the contract developers hadn't made a unfixable bug or deliberate backdoor, you'd still have to trust your neighbours to not screw up when…

But wouldn't you first look up that developers prior work history on the blockchain? I'd just ask what they've deployed in the past and could then easily verify if they are skilled or a bad actor. As for the funds being stolen I think we're just at the beginning of crypto custody services. It's like in the eighteen hundreds saying banks are a bad idea because they get robbed all the time.

Re: Is Web3 anything?

#396
These comments brought to you by the community that dismissed Bitcoin while it was still trading at sub $1k.

You could create a viable investment strategy based around doing the opposite of what HN thinks and you would do extremely well.

Re: Is Web3 anything?

#397

I feel like web3 continues the trend (in a good way) of the financialization of everything. The primitives of web3 effectively enable the fine grained economic measurement and distribution of every element of value-exchange, and gives folks the ability to participate in these cashflows where they were previously not able to. Now that there's standards for representations of value / governance / etc (ERC-20) now any p…

Btw, for anyone who wants to read this book (its an interesting one) - https://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/fiction/acceler...

Economics 2.0 starts at "Welcome to decade eight, third millennium"

A bit further down:

> Collapse of the trans-Lunar economy: Deep in the hot thinking depths of the solar system, vast new intellects come up with a new theory of wealth that optimizes resource allocation better than the previously pervasive Free Market 1.0. With no local minima to hamper them, and no need to spawn and reap start-ups Darwin-style, the companies, group minds, and organizations that adopt the so-called Accelerated Salesman Infrastructure of Economics 2.0 trade optimally with each other. The phase change accelerates as more and more entities join in, leveraging network externalities to overtake the traditional ecosystem. Amber and Sadeq are late on the train, Sadeq obsessing about how to reconcile ASI with murabaha and mudaraba while the postmodern economy of the mid-twenty-first century disintegrates around them. Being late has punitive consequences – the Ring Imperium has always been a net importer of brainpower and a net exporter of gravitational potential energy. Now it's a tired backwater, the bit rate from the red-shifted relativisitic probe insufficiently delightful to obsess the daemons of industrial routing. In other words, they're poor.

Re: Is Web3 anything?

#398
post #370
post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd also add that one of the big fallacies/deceits of blockchain is that it does not allow trustless transactions as the article author suggests, it simply shifts the trust. In the author's example of gathering funds to renovate a neighbourhood park, you'd still need to trust that the contract developers hadn't made a unfixable bug or deliberate backdoor, you'd still have to trust your neighbours to not screw up when…

True, but there's value in reducing the number of parties you must trust to get something done. It's easy to imagine that, at the margin, there are a subset of collective action problems that will get solved if you can reduce the number of parties that must be trusted. Worrying about the need to sue 3 people has to be better than worrying about the need to sue 6.

If that were the case, then decentralization would be the explicit opposite: instead of trusting a central party you've got N machines owned by M parties involved, most of whom you couldn't take to court if you wanted if a "smart contract" was misinvoked or a blockchain transaction was screwed up. Sure, most chains require attacks to be 51% or more collusion, but if a 51% attack happened, how many third parties did you trust that you probably can't sue? Millions of machines with thousands of owners? That is by far the opposite of "trust as few parties as possible".

Re: Is Web3 anything?

#399
post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, it's important to realize the core reason why people trust the government with these things. It's because the government has the ability to actually _enforce_ the contracts if required. I mean, having a deed of owning some property on the blockchain is all cool and dandy. Provided that the polity where the property is located recognizes this. Otherwise you're still trespassing.

I think the sweet spot for some blockchain use cases is where contract enforcement doesn't work well. It's really hard to seek redress for diffuse, low-grade breach. A 10 million people with one dollar in damages are less likely to be made whole than 1 person with 10 million in damages. And contract enforcement often fails in insolvency. Try enforcing a how warranty against a builder that's gone bankrupt.

> Try enforcing a [home] warranty against a builder that's gone bankrupt.

As someone who has been through this exact thing, it sucks, but it is possible in the current court systems. Courts have complicated "Discovery" processes explicitly for this reason: to find out not just the immediate problem (a bankrupt builder or a builder who would be bankrupt by the end of the court case), but the supply lines (what other warranties apply?) and the creditors (where is the bankrupt company's money going?).

A human run court is allowed to state "this bankruptcy looks fishy for this reason, and these people are owed damages, and some of the money that moved on already to these creditors is by rights should be paid for damages to these people". It's definitely not fun to be involved in such court proceedings, and it is and likely always be an inefficient human process, but it is a process as a society we've built to be mostly very trustworthy. A jury of peers to decide if damages are warranted in the first place; a human judge with reasoning to say "this shell company is bankrupt, but these other companies can and should pay, maybe with the money they took from this shell company" or "this shell company is bankrupt but some of this still applies to the warranty insurance product they purchased and the insurance provider needs to pay up even though their client is bankrupt".

It doesn't always work right/decide in your favor, and it is slow and expensive, but "smart contracts" offer no better and often a lot worse processes. A "smart contract" can't route around a shell company/wallet. A "smart contract" likely can't discover that other warranties may have applied or other insurance products existed (and if it can it's in a programming class all its own and likely a one off you can't expect to exist in general or to work if you need to actually rely on it).

Re: Is Web3 anything?

#400
post #395
post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd also add that one of the big fallacies/deceits of blockchain is that it does not allow trustless transactions as the article author suggests, it simply shifts the trust. In the author's example of gathering funds to renovate a neighbourhood park, you'd still need to trust that the contract developers hadn't made a unfixable bug or deliberate backdoor, you'd still have to trust your neighbours to not screw up when…

But wouldn't you first look up that developers prior work history on the blockchain? I'd just ask what they've deployed in the past and could then easily verify if they are skilled or a bad actor. As for the funds being stolen I think we're just at the beginning of crypto custody services. It's like in the eighteen hundreds saying banks are a bad idea because they get robbed all the time.

“Just ask” and “easily verify” are carrying a lot of water in your comment. Ask who? Verify how? How would someone with no programming experience do it, how long would it take them, and would it be a good use of their time vs. the old-fashioned way?
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