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C64 OS: make a Commodore 64 feel fast and useful

c64os.com

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Re: C64 OS: make a Commodore 64 feel fast and useful

#21

Post by the_af »

nradov wrote: post #16

Cool project. But much of that functionality was available with GEOS in 1986. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GEOS_%288-bit_operating_system...

The author mentions GEOS among those efforts that, and I quote:

> [...] had good intentions but pushed the machine in ways it wasn't designed for, compromising on speed and usability in the pursuit of features available on more powerful computers.

I must be honest and say the statement feels a bit puzzling, since C64OS certainly wasn't something the C64 was designed for...

Re: C64 OS: make a Commodore 64 feel fast and useful

#23

Post by badsectoracula »

cageface wrote: post #18
jazzyjackson wrote: post #5

I love these projects that show what can be done with 1mhz cpu and mere kilobytes of ram, really makes you wonder what we’re doing with the other 99% of hardware performance we’ve achieved since then

The Luddite sentiment common among programmers today really surprises me. The software we’re building today is vastly more powerful and capable than anything from the C64 era.

Luddite is someone who is opposed to new technology, which doesn't apply here as the sentiment isn't about being opposed to the new tech but about the new tech not being taken advantage of.

The software we build today is "vastly" more powerful in the sense that, strictly speaking, you can do more stuff, but it is way less powerful - and often broken - than what it could be, considering what you can see being possible on older hardware and what seems to be done in modern hardware.

Also it isn't really something that happens today, here is a nice (and funny) talk from Joe Armstrong on the topic from almost 8 years ago[0]. Though this sort of sentiment goes way back, e.g. Wirth's classic "Plea for lean software" article from 1995[1].

(Joe's talk is more about the broken part and IMO he misidentifies the issue being about trying to make things fast when the real issue -that he also mentions- is that pretty much nobody knows what is really going on with the system itself)

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKXe3HUG2l4

[1] https://cr.yp.to/bib/1995/wirth.pdf

Re: C64 OS: make a Commodore 64 feel fast and useful

#24

Post by badsectoracula »

anyfoo wrote: post #17
nradov wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Programmer productivity has gotten worse. None of the development tools in widespread use today is as productive as Visual Basic or Delphi were back in 1996.

This needs a lot of qualifiers. I can see that for web development maybe (I don't know, haven't done that for almost 10 years, but I can imagine given the constraints), but for system level programming for example I don't want to go back to the 90s. Not that Visual Basic or Delphi worked for that anyway.

Technically Delphi could have worked but you'd need to use your own RTL and aside from a few additional language feature, you'd be losing 99% of what Delphi offered anyway.

Re: C64 OS: make a Commodore 64 feel fast and useful

#25

Post by analognoise »

nradov wrote: post #14
MrBuddyCasino wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Programmer productivity. As long as this is the bottleneck in determining market success of a product, this tradeoff will continue.

Programmer productivity has gotten worse. None of the development tools in widespread use today is as productive as Visual Basic or Delphi were back in 1996.

Lazarus and FreePascal would beg to differ:

https://www.lazarus-ide.org

Everything you ever loved about Delphi 7, but with a ton of modernization. LGPL, too!

Re: C64 OS: make a Commodore 64 feel fast and useful

#26

Post by cageface »

badsectoracula wrote: post #23
cageface wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Luddite sentiment common among programmers today really surprises me. The software we’re building today is vastly more powerful and capable than anything from the C64 era.

Luddite is someone who is opposed to new technology, which doesn't apply here as the sentiment isn't about being opposed to the new tech but about the new tech not being taken advantage of. The software we build today is "vastly" more powerful in the sense that, strictly speaking, you can do more stuff, but it is way less powerful - and often broken - than what it could be, considering what you can see being possible…

This is because people don’t want to pay the cost of software carefully developed to take maximum advantage of modern hardware. In specific niches like audio production where this is desired then prices run into hundreds of dollars for a single plugin to cover the development costs.

Re: C64 OS: make a Commodore 64 feel fast and useful

#27

Post by beamatronic »

analognoise wrote: post #25
nradov wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Programmer productivity has gotten worse. None of the development tools in widespread use today is as productive as Visual Basic or Delphi were back in 1996.

Lazarus and FreePascal would beg to differ: https://www.lazarus-ide.org Everything you ever loved about Delphi 7, but with a ton of modernization. LGPL, too!

Serious question: Can you make "Netflix money", er, "FAANG money", as a Lazarus developer?

Re: C64 OS: make a Commodore 64 feel fast and useful

#29

Post by layer8 »

the_af wrote: post #21
nradov wrote: post #16

Cool project. But much of that functionality was available with GEOS in 1986. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GEOS_%288-bit_operating_system...

The author mentions GEOS among those efforts that, and I quote: > [...] had good intentions but pushed the machine in ways it wasn't designed for, compromising on speed and usability in the pursuit of features available on more powerful computers. I must be honest and say the statement feels a bit puzzling, since C64OS certainly wasn't something the C64 was designed for...

Maybe they are alluding to the fact that GEOS was using graphics mode for the GUI (which makes drawing the UI slower and requires more memory, thus arguably would require a more powerful machine) where C64OS is using text mode (plus the graphics split mode) which arguably is more suited to the C64.
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