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Plan Ahead for Phase Out of 3G Cellular Networks and Service

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Re: Plan Ahead for Phase Out of 3G Cellular Networks and Service

#61

Post by reaperducer »

nradov wrote: post #30
KronisLV wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As a side effect, anyone still using a 3G device needs to buy a new one, but I don't think that is the main driver for the move. Despite the positives, this feels kind of sad. If you look at software, many of the older browsers out there can't even open simple modern webpages. After years, i grow weary of the churn, i've gone from Windows 98 to Windows 10 now, through numerous versions of Debian/Ubuntu and CentOS/F…

Cell phones and mobile devices in general have always been disposable items with limited expected lifespans. Instead of worrying about keeping obsolete devices working we should focus on clean disposal and recycling that minimizes waste and pollution.

Cell phones and mobile devices in general have always been disposable items

Only if you define "always" as post-2010.

Cell phones were for a very long time considered long-term purchases, along the lines of washing machines and refrigerators. It was only when they became fashion accessories and certain companies started relying on pushing out new models every year for no reason other than to boost the balance sheet that they became "disposable."

You're right about the recycling, though. We need more places to recycle e-waste.

I was surprised a couple of years ago when I wanted to recycle an old PowerBook. I assumed that every Apple Store would take used gear. But it turned out that none of the Apple Stores near me would take it. I'd have to drive it four hours away to another city in order for it to be recycled.

Re: Plan Ahead for Phase Out of 3G Cellular Networks and Service

#62

Post by nradov »

reaperducer wrote: post #61
nradov wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cell phones and mobile devices in general have always been disposable items with limited expected lifespans. Instead of worrying about keeping obsolete devices working we should focus on clean disposal and recycling that minimizes waste and pollution.

Cell phones and mobile devices in general have always been disposable items Only if you define "always" as post-2010. Cell phones were for a very long time considered long-term purchases, along the lines of washing machines and refrigerators. It was only when they became fashion accessories and certain companies started relying on pushing out new models every year for no reason other than to boost the balance sheet t…

That's simply wrong. In the US at least, prior to 2010 cell phones were typically replaced about every 3 years. The Motorola Razr flip phone was absolutely a fashion accessory in 2004; watch some music videos from that era. Motorola and other brands did push out new models every year.

Re: Plan Ahead for Phase Out of 3G Cellular Networks and Service

#63

Post by CountSessine »

sharikous wrote: post #34

What are the technical characteristics of 3G and LTE? Will we lose a very useful fallback? I ask because I have a very modern device which is basically useless when I put there a SIM of an operator which has LTE only, and works well with a 3G/LTE operator. I am speaking of the countryside and I wonder if the problem is the operator coverage or the technology utilized.

Disclaimer: I'm not a dark-mage-of-the-smith-chart - I'm just a dude who had to take a course in EM once. Honestly, I'm pretty ignorant and you should take all of this with a grain of salt.

My understanding is that the noise model is very different - that LTE/ofdm are very good at getting around radio noise by-frequency - ie a bunch of interference at a particular frequency. But 3G/umts/cdma was very good at dealing with multi-path distortion because of the whole chip-code-orthogonality property and the fact that the radio would have multiple time-shifted taps on the antenna. That would mean that in theory LTE would be better at dealing with persistent environmental noise, but 3G would be better in a city where the phone is receiving that same signal but reflected against buildings and slightly time-shifted.

I doubt this makes any difference in your case - it's probably just that 3G is typically on 850MHz and that LTE is probably on a higher frequency like 2300MHz which wouldn't propagate as well.

Re: Plan Ahead for Phase Out of 3G Cellular Networks and Service

#64

Post by [deleted] »

bellyfullofbac wrote: post #56
Snitch-Thursday wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to be dumb - but I don't want my car to have cellular connectivity, so this opens up more car purchase options for me once 3G goes dark. Granted, that's a tiny influx of new customers, but still, there's at least 1 new customer as result of their decision to still use 3G.

In the EU new cars now are mandated to have an automatic way to call the emergency services after a crash, I wonder if the governments have a clause about what would happen if 3G is turned off (I guess they're not planning to do that for a while yet). If I were in power and I genuinely cared about saving the planet, I'd figure out how to make cars without this auto-emergency-dial system more expensive to insure; that…

[deleted]

Re: Plan Ahead for Phase Out of 3G Cellular Networks and Service

#65

Post by rubylark »

anthomtb wrote: post #48
rubylark wrote: post #3

I worked very very briefly in the wireless service industry on UAPs and large scale cell antenna receivers. To me, this doesn't seem as much a conspiracy to obsolete old phones as a practical stance to not need to have two copies of antennas on every tower. The old antennas used in 3G don't go up to the frequencies needed by true 5G, so they need new ones. If they're developing new ones, they don't want to have to ke…

Something here doesn’t make sense to me. The retired 3G spectrum will be used for 4G and 5G (per the FCC article) so the antennas could be reused as the carrier frequency will not change. For a concrete example, if you’re running 3G at 900 MHz, why would running 5G at 900 MHz require a different antenna? On that note, saying the antennas don’t go up to true 5G frequencies is a bit…misleading? Because while the freque…

That's fair. Unfortunately I don't know the specifics of the hardware involved, and I wasn't there long enough to get a good understanding. I hope someone with more knowledge or industry experience can chime in. All I know that the company I worked for sold a completely new antenna assembly that supported 5G and that our customers were moving to using those antennas.

As far as the size, all of the units we sold have been approximately the same size for quite a while. E.g. all the chasses varied by maybe 6-10" max between the old assemblies and the new. The new ones were larger (maybe more room for power electronics?) I don't know if there was any effort on our part to support 5G transition without replacing our antennas.

Edit: I believe we were pushing new hardware because the services wanted to utilize the high frequency band of FR2 24-56Gz [1] (what I meant by "true 5G") that our old antenna assemblies couldn't support. I assume they couldn't support it because they weren't optimized for those bands at a high enough fidelity for good data transmission.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5G#Frequency_range_2_(24%E2%80...

Re: Plan Ahead for Phase Out of 3G Cellular Networks and Service

#66

Post by kingcharles »

speedcoder wrote: post #7

Is there any way to fix my old 3G phone to continue to work under 5G?

The WiFi will still work for a long time to come. That's the best you can do. There are plenty of apps to call through WiFi. I use Skype for most of my calling. I only use the cell network when I'm outside the home.

Re: Plan Ahead for Phase Out of 3G Cellular Networks and Service

#67

Post by reaperducer »

speedcoder wrote: post #7

Is there any way to fix my old 3G phone to continue to work under 5G?

Is there any way to fix my old 3G phone to continue to work under 5G?

If you only use it around the house, you can get a picocell.

I once lived in a building that was too tall for cell service to reach the upper floor residences, and the carriers (mine was AT&T) would send the residents picocells to relay the signals from their cell phones to the internet.

Re: Plan Ahead for Phase Out of 3G Cellular Networks and Service

#68

Post by usrbin »

nradov wrote: post #30
KronisLV wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As a side effect, anyone still using a 3G device needs to buy a new one, but I don't think that is the main driver for the move. Despite the positives, this feels kind of sad. If you look at software, many of the older browsers out there can't even open simple modern webpages. After years, i grow weary of the churn, i've gone from Windows 98 to Windows 10 now, through numerous versions of Debian/Ubuntu and CentOS/F…

Cell phones and mobile devices in general have always been disposable items with limited expected lifespans. Instead of worrying about keeping obsolete devices working we should focus on clean disposal and recycling that minimizes waste and pollution.

> Cell phones and mobile devices in general have always been disposable items with limited expected lifespans.

I agree with your second point, but I want to push back on this first point a bit. While it seems like manufacturers benefit from devices being disposable, I don't see a strong reason why they should be.

The reality is that extending the lifespan of devices is one of the best ways to lower consumption. When it comes to changes like retiring 3G, we also have to weigh that against the environmental cost of maintaining the 3G network. Given the maintenance impact, it may end up being a net positive to retire these devices, but it's still an important cost to consider.

To be clear, we should also improve disposal and recycling, but that shouldn't be to the exclusion of reducing and reusing.

Re: Plan Ahead for Phase Out of 3G Cellular Networks and Service

#69

Post by usrbin »

reaperducer wrote: post #60
KronisLV wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As a side effect, anyone still using a 3G device needs to buy a new one, but I don't think that is the main driver for the move. Despite the positives, this feels kind of sad. If you look at software, many of the older browsers out there can't even open simple modern webpages. After years, i grow weary of the churn, i've gone from Windows 98 to Windows 10 now, through numerous versions of Debian/Ubuntu and CentOS/F…

Use old and sadly insecure hardware/software? I think "security" is used as a crutch and an excuse too much. As a retro hardware enthusiast, very often the hardware isn't insecure. It's just that someone somewhere got lazy or greedy or both and decided to do something that makes the hardware not work right anymore. Things like billion-dollar game companies that shut down servers that cost them all of $5,000 a year to…

> $5,000 a year

> It's less than is spent on a single coffee maker

I really want to try this coffee maker.

Re: Plan Ahead for Phase Out of 3G Cellular Networks and Service

#70

Post by tomxor »

xnyan wrote: post #52
tomxor wrote: post #45

For contrast. In the UK 3G has another 12 years ahead of it [0] Not everyone uses a smartphone with the constant consumer churn. I've had a good quality Nokia "dumb" phone for 10 years and have no reason to buy a new one, I need a new £10 battery soon and then it will keep going for another ten years in this country. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-59583783

>...3G has another 12 years ahead of it "Assembly Research founder Matthew Howett told BBC News the change would probably come sooner than the government's 2033 deadline." 12 years is the deadline by which it must be done, not how long it will be around. 3G will be shut off in as as little as a year in some cases: "BT revealed plans to phase out 3G by 2023, and 2G later in the decade."

Well that sucks.

Also a strange quote from BT since they don't actually have a mobile network.

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