How do you fix a stroad? • Hacker News Board

Re: How do you fix a stroad?

#361

Post by jquery » Fri, Dec 10, 2021, 4:51 PM UTC

kofejnik wrote: post #272

sien wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When someone says : "Its the overweight, white trash, lower back tattoo of aesthetics." It completely comes over as high level elitism.

Not just elitism, it's actual racism, quite simply. Can you imagine the outrage if it was "overweight, black trash, gang tattoos of aesthetics"?

It’s not the same. Black Americans are still fighting for their right to not get shot at by police. White America is seething that Trump had his election “stolen” from him and is scheming to put him back in power in 2024.

Re: How do you fix a stroad?

#362

Post by JeremyNT » Fri, Dec 10, 2021, 4:58 PM UTC

refurb wrote: post #130

trinovantes wrote: post #75

The Not Just Bikes youtube channel was quite the rabbit hole. It has convinced me that I really hate North American car-centric cities. It's a shame there's basically no country in the anglosphere designed for pedestrians like most European countries.

That's because people like their cars. You may not, but many people do. And I've traveled in many countries and it's not like cars are uniquely American.

Is this a chicken and egg thing though? Do people like their cars because the world they live in requires cars, and thus they become part of their identity?

Re: How do you fix a stroad?

#363

Post by robben1234 » Fri, Dec 10, 2021, 5:05 PM UTC

Doctor_Fegg wrote: post #208

trinovantes wrote: post #75

The Not Just Bikes youtube channel was quite the rabbit hole. It has convinced me that I really hate North American car-centric cities. It's a shame there's basically no country in the anglosphere designed for pedestrians like most European countries.

Britain is in the anglosphere. We’re not exactly the Netherlands but we’re a whole heap ahead of the US, and getting (very slowly) better. Same goes for New Zealand.

>It's a shame there's basically no country in the anglosphere designed for pedestrians like most European countries.

Was also a bit confused why Britain and Ireland are not considered by the parent. Sure, they do not have as good cycling infrastructure as the Netherlands. But both of them are equally good at being pedestrian friendly - exactly what has been asked - and I'd say are even more pedestrian friendly than most European countries.

Re: How do you fix a stroad?

#364

Post by dougmwne » Fri, Dec 10, 2021, 5:12 PM UTC

throwawaysea wrote: post #270

TulliusCicero wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, this comment is the mindset I'm talking about. Protecting "neighborhood character" by prioritizing cars over people, increasing property values at the expense of affordability, keeping out the poors, etc. They put a lot of nice words on a lot of very bad results. Meanwhile, very-dense-by-US-standards cities like Vienna and Munich often top the charts for quality of life. And I can attest to that myself: Munich…

Why are those bad results? Neighborhood character matters - what's wrong with people having a preference for low density, open air, fast access, uncrowded parks, and so forth? You are engaging in the same dishonest recasting of people's personal preferences by summoning a caricature about increasing property values or "keeping out the poors". No one I know who favors low density cares about those things - it is first…

This is one of the most bizarro world comments I’ve ever read. The argument is internally consistent, but so completely opposite of my lived experiences. I nomad around extensively. I am in suburban Florida now and this character and freedom you’re talking about is incredibly absent. I was just in Vienna for a month and my opinion on the city is the opposite of yours in every way. This is a good reminder to me that different people can differ more in just some opinions, but can have absolutely irreconcilably opposing worldviews. I would steamroll your suburbs if I could and you would steamroll my walkable urban core. Cheers!

Re: How do you fix a stroad?

#365

Post by harpersealtako » Fri, Dec 10, 2021, 5:13 PM UTC

yarnton99 wrote: post #128

pcmoney wrote: post #79

Has anyone ever put a picture of a stroad up as art/instagram etc like you see with downtown NYC, Paris, small european villages, shanghai, rural mountain towns, old downtowns in America etc? Of course not. It is the McDonald’s of city planning. Cheap, ugly, bad for you but also shockingly expensive once the medical/infrastructure maintenance bill comes due. Its the overweight, white trash, lower back tattoo of aesth…

Just trying to find some positive examples of American small towns. As a European, if I were to relocate to the US, where would I find strong town communities? I know for example Ithaca, NY, might qualify. Other examples in the South, Midwest, etc? Also stroads are not just an American problem. I have found horrible stroads in places where you would never expect them such as Oxford or Copenhagen.

Assuming you're looking for quaint walkable towns (and not stressing over the fact that they're surrounded by miles of car-dependent suburbs and rural areas), you can find them anywhere and everywhere. Most small/medium sized towns on the east coast have a historic/old town that is like this, for example in Virginia state:

Culpeper, VA [0] (passenger railroad station right in downtown that connects to all the big cities on the east coast)

Warrenton, VA [1] (Ridiculously good downtown restaurant scene, whenever I go there there always seems to be some festival or market happening)

Staunton, VA [2] (Beautiful area surrounded by some of the largest tracts of public land in the eastern US)

Fredericksburg, VA [3] (tons of interesting history here)

Charlottesville, VA [4] (look at that pedestrian-only shopping street a block away!)

[0] https://www.google.com/maps/@38.4731207,-77.9962447,3a,75y,1...

[1] https://www.google.com/maps/@38.7131072,-77.7940715,3a,60y,2...

[2] https://www.google.com/maps/@38.1496218,-79.0715993,3a,75y,1...

[3] https://www.google.com/maps/@38.3031279,-77.460567,3a,75y,16...

[4] https://www.google.com/maps/@38.031349,-78.4795003,3a,60y,20...

Re: How do you fix a stroad?

#366

Post by pcmoney » Fri, Dec 10, 2021, 5:20 PM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #267

pcmoney wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We as a society, in many aspects, used to eat AND build better when we were poorer. It is a matter of desire and priority. Also McDonalds is only cheaper if you’re in a food desert. Which areas that rely on stroads rarely are. Also, notice how the building around stroads and most “modern” buildings get knocked down and rebuilt every 10 years? Seems like something only a rich society could afford to do.

I have not noticed widespread occurrences of 10-year old buildings being knocked down and rebuilt. Have you noticed this? Where? A building takes more than a year to build typically; if they were being knocked down every 10 years, the entire city would look like nothing more than a construction site.

This happens all the time. This twitter account has tons of examples: https://twitter.com/arch_crimes/status/1460426779714220032?s...

Also most suburban sprawl is a never ending construction site. It is insanely expensive.

Re: How do you fix a stroad?

#367

Post by robben1234 » Fri, Dec 10, 2021, 5:23 PM UTC

refurb wrote: post #130

trinovantes wrote: post #75

The Not Just Bikes youtube channel was quite the rabbit hole. It has convinced me that I really hate North American car-centric cities. It's a shame there's basically no country in the anglosphere designed for pedestrians like most European countries.

That's because people like their cars. You may not, but many people do. And I've traveled in many countries and it's not like cars are uniquely American.

Most people don't like driving.

People might like their cars for the freedom of movement they provide - like being able to transport cargo without a headache; being able to go on a weekend trip with family; etc. But they certainly don't like their cars for having to spend 2 hours a day just to get to their workplace and back home.

They tolerate it.

That's why manuals are dying, that's why cars now HAVE to have things preventing distracted drivers from dying, that's why autopiloted car manufacturers are swimming in money thrown at them by everyone despite showing no results.

Should you ask why they tolerate it - the reason is very simple. The alternatives - cycling and public transport - have seen close to none of investments in the past decades all over the world. And therefore provide a horrible and humiliating experience to its users.

Also, the focus on cars allowed many cities and even countries to get lazy at planning and providing equal infrastructure to all districts. Having a smaller school in your neighbourhood is better for the kids - they could go there by themselves with friends and not spend much time doing nothing in traffic everyday. But because everyone has cars government will do the cheaper thing and build a bigger school that isn't convenient to anyone.

People shouldn't have to drive everyday.

All neighbourhoods should have adequate commercial and infrastructural exposure on the spot. No driving to school, groceries or GP. And when you have to commute, alternatives to driving should provide a better experience. Then many people would opt not to drive even if commute is needed, and therefore people like me - who like to drive - would have the roads free of traffic jams and distracted drivers, and be able to actually enjoy the experience.

Re: How do you fix a stroad?

#368

Post by pcmoney » Fri, Dec 10, 2021, 5:25 PM UTC

throwawaylinux wrote: post #227

pcmoney wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If our options are trying to remain status quo or becoming “elite” (as if thats a thing) well then I am not picking status quo. We should build things that inspire is what I am saying and yes I used a visual imagery of the least inspiring most tragically basic thing (that someone willfully chooses to become and do) that came to mind.

You think equating poor civil design to "poor white trash" is doing your part to change it? The only way you could improve things is to post this kind of garbage on your elitist internet forums and smugly deride anyone who objects? That is what is elitist. Hope that clears things up for you.

Is there anything as elitist as saying "Hope that clears things up for you."? As if you are an arbiter of clarity.

I'll do my part building things that are pretty and useful. You do whatever you think is best.

Re: How do you fix a stroad?

#369

Post by fingerlocks » Fri, Dec 10, 2021, 5:27 PM UTC

mcv wrote: post #268

TulliusCicero wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take it from someone who grew up in Santa Clara: El Camino Real fucking sucks. Now, many businesses along El Camino Real are great, don't get me wrong. But the road itself is miserable. When we lived in Sunnyvale there was a bigass Korean market literally across the street from us; we'd only drive there, despite it being, again, directly across the street , because that's how painful and dangerous-feeling it was to c…

> we'd only drive there, despite it being, again, directly across the street That is just bizarre. And it's important to understand how inefficient this is to need a car to cross the street; you need parking space on this side, parking space on the other side, you need to get on and off the stroad, causing wear, interfering with and slowing down the other traffic, which is mostly through traffic that's not interested…

I'm not sure what you're imagining, but this is probably the location being discussed: https://goo.gl/maps/UJr6wGZ6GEhQypWg9

If not that particular market, there's similar ones along either direction of the stroad. The whole area is designed for cars, it's not walkable. Yes it's inefficient, but totally understandable why OP drives to cross a street.

Re: How do you fix a stroad?

#370

Post by pcmoney » Fri, Dec 10, 2021, 5:32 PM UTC

refurb wrote: post #237

pcmoney wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We as a society, in many aspects, used to eat AND build better when we were poorer. It is a matter of desire and priority. Also McDonalds is only cheaper if you’re in a food desert. Which areas that rely on stroads rarely are. Also, notice how the building around stroads and most “modern” buildings get knocked down and rebuilt every 10 years? Seems like something only a rich society could afford to do.

We as a society, in many aspects, used to eat AND build better when we were poorer Spoken like someone whose never been poor.

Ok, so factually we are more wealthy than we have ever been as a society across the entire wealth distribution and yet we have an obesity epidemic. An obesity epidemic is very much a rich country problem. Our terrible food has nothing to do with it being too expensive (Although listening to the FDA back when they advocated 10+ servings of grains a day probably didn't help).

Also expecting people to apologize for their social station is tacky as hell. You play the hand you're dealt to the best of your ability. Anyone who claims otherwise has an agenda. Why would your critique of spoken like someone who has never been poor have any merit whatsoever?