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Ask HN: Am I the only “unlucky” software engineer?

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Re: Ask HN: Am I the only “unlucky” software engineer?

#151

Post by plutonorm »

bluesnowmonkey wrote: post #141
plutonorm wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other guy probably took it as an insult that I was saying he wasn't creative. Being 'creative' is seen as 'good' when in fact it's often a huge pita.

You’re calling people uncreative farmers. Of course it’s insulting. But to someone who stays in one place for a long time, not because it feels good but because it’s what the world needs to keep turning, young job hopping engineers remind me of my kids, always wanting new legos. It’s not about whether you’re a special creative snowflake, it’s about whether you have the disciple and emotional fortitude to keep working…

But it feels good for you to help keep the world spinning, you gain pleasure from being a part of it. That is dedication to tradition and the love of what is. That is a character trait, a part of the character trait that I propose to call the 'farmer' mentality and its part of the low end of openness on the big 5. It is this emotion that I lack and may be a trait of others high in openness/creativity. It is not simply a conceit, it is not selfishness or a lack of a desire to give.

It is the result of not placing value in "what currently is" as a default position. The what 'is' and 'has been' has little value to many. "What we have now is not good. It is not worth my sacrifice.".

And thinking about it rationally there are many ways to justify this position: The world is heading towards ecological disaster. The world is a sickening mess of inequality, from the starving to the over fead. From the free to the stultifying world of North Korea.

Propping up the inner processes of facebook, is not worth my sacrifice. What 'is', is not worthwhile, what is important is what can be made, what can be created to better the lives of others. Continuing to do what we do is inadequate and counterproductive.

And while you may view this as childish and something to be grown out of, I contend this is an enduring personality trait. I also contend that it is a personality trait that has merit, it has utility to society as a whole. Who is it that is going to go out and change things for the better? The personality dynamic of the entrepreneurs and the artists (because they are very similar personalities) is one of dissatisfaction and it has to be, because the discomfort of being on the edge away from the herd has to be less than the discomfort induced by remaining in the herd, otherwise the creative behaviour would not be realised.

What you are saying in your response is simply that your emotional makeup allows you to function in a maintenance role without too much discomfort because while you would prefer more creative aspects to your job, you can find solace in contributing to society. And what I am saying is that there are some for whom their personality makeup does not permit this as a solution. For these people it is better to at least attempt to make something new. They will probably fail, but it is by evolutionary design that a certain proportion of people will be forced to try.

In the end there is value to maintenance and there is value to exploration. Some will be happy with a world dominated by maintenance, some will be mildly unhappy and learn to find value in it. But some will be so adverse to it that they will be forced to perform the role of exploration. All of these kinds of people contribute. I am making no value judgement here, what you hear in my voice is only resentment born of being in the minority.

Re: Ask HN: Am I the only “unlucky” software engineer?

#152

Post by distracted_boy »

radu_floricica wrote: post #132
beingflo wrote: post #4

I can't comment on the rest of the post but this bit stood out to me: > Sometimes they talk so much about fit fit fit, but they don't even bother with a personality or IQ test (which as a former hiring manager, I find very valuable because it allows you to balance the team, not because you see how high/low people score). Just for reference, if an employer ever asks me to perform an IQ test I'm definitely walking away…

Why? It's a pretty valuable piece of information.

Why is it valuable if you can practice doing those type of tests and then get a good score on the real test? What's the purpose then? I mean if the job is writing code, wouldn't you be interested in finding out if the interviewee can code, instead of checking if the person can figure how a certain geometric form unfolds?

Re: Ask HN: Am I the only “unlucky” software engineer?

#153

Post by dusted »

bjourne wrote: post #148
samhw wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Remember, if you call something crap, you're probably doing it close to the person who is responsible for it being crap. I got bitten by this once. It turns out there's a variable φ(crap) representing the amount of time you have to work at a company before – what I thought were – self-deprecating comments, about the app being a piece of shit, are regarded as self -deprecating, rather than an outsider trashing their…

What you're saying is that the app is crap, everyone knows it is crap, but it's a faux pas for the new person to say it? If so, it seems it is not really about the crappy app but more about the in-group pecking order . Wish adults would be mature enough to forgo things like that.

Thing is, context means something to people, a new person coming in starting shitting all over everything has no context for saying that, they may be right, but the don't have any shared experiences of why it is so, and that makes a difference. Having suffered through things together, it makes a difference, it softens the words, or at least, it points them away from people, and into situations, situations of the past, that a newcomer cannot know, and so, cannot be referring to.

Re: Ask HN: Am I the only “unlucky” software engineer?

#154

Post by dusted »

plutonorm wrote: post #150
dusted wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except I upvoted it, I am not offended by it, but didn't bother writing out a "defence" for my view, I have no desire to change those assumptions. I do not consider myself particularly creative, no, if I was "highly creative" people would pay for my paintings and other artworks, as it stand, I'm lucky to even get invited to display them anywhere. I paint abstract acrylics, enjoy photography, program fun little projec…

Beautifully written and reasoned. I disagree only in that I think more emphasis should be placed upon finding a niche that allows that range of expression. I also believe that society would be wealthier and happier if more such niches existed. But if you cannot find alignment, "working to live" is a reasonable compromise. You clearly are creative, although you mock me by claiming that you are not. People who have wor…

> I think maybe that dynamic influenced the tone of your original message.

I believe you are, at least in part, right in that. I'm going to reflect on this further, later in the day, but it is a very insightful analysis, thank you.

I do believe this is part of "growing up", learning to not just accept (as defeat) the way things are, but to find something in them to thrive on, even without changing yourself or who you are.

I've been a fierce Free Software advocate, a Linux fanatic, I've stood on my principles any chance I got, and it's been necessary for me to do so, and I understand that other people have other things about themselves that limit them in one way or another, but it really is important, not for the world, but for the individual, to be able to find some way to live in the world that is not entirely without compromise or adjustment (whichever fit the situation).

Again, I'm not advocating for compromise, or for changing who you are, but to seek reasons that things can work out, instead of seeking for reasons they can't. I just cannot muster sympathy for this particular concept of "feeling entitled and not having a job" at the same time.. It's like some famous chef, who used to work at a 3 star michelin restaurant and goes to bed each night hungry because he's absolutely refusing to work at the "not even 1 star" high-end restaurant, while lots of other people are able to function just fine in their job at McDonalds, it's a display of privilege that I don't care for or respect.

Re: Ask HN: Am I the only “unlucky” software engineer?

#155

Post by dangerface »

dusted wrote: post #135
dangerface wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a network that gets me work, they get me more work than I have time to do, this is why any serious developer needs to qualify work and turn down stuff they don't have the time for. Despite my network bring in more work than I can do I still look for more qualified work as my skills are highly valued I can find better paying work than what comes to me. You'r advice is to depend only on your network? No serious…

> Your advice is to depend only on your network? No, but read OP again, I'm replying to someone who tells they cannot get a job, that consider themselves unlucky, I have to assume they'd be willing to actually take a job, but they somehow manage to get themselves out of it. > You don't feel you can turn down jobs, in 2021? You can turn down all the jobs in the world when you're in a position to do so. Beggars can't b…

Some one looking for work feels down on their luck and your advice is to stop looking for work and just get your mates to find you a job and leech off the reputation they have made.

Thats shitty advice, advice you admit wouldn't work for you but think is good enough for others.

Re: Ask HN: Am I the only “unlucky” software engineer?

#156

Post by drakonka »

I am also in Scanadinavia, and honestly from your post I am getting an "everything is wrong with everyone else" vibe - which is usually a sign that you may want to look closer at yourself.

Hiring processes are certainly not perfect, but I have not had the types of issues you describe in any sort of persistent way. Granted, I have not interviewed a lot since moving here (once in 2012, once in 2019, and once earlier this year but with a non-Scandinavian company). But I know none of my friends and acquaintances in the industry here have had the kinds of problems you describe on a persistent basis.

To be honest, your mention of personality and IQ tests was a bit of a red flag when reading the post that something isn't quite aligned with modern hiring practices when it comes to your mindset and expectations.

Re: Ask HN: Am I the only “unlucky” software engineer?

#157

Post by samhw »

bjourne wrote: post #148
samhw wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Remember, if you call something crap, you're probably doing it close to the person who is responsible for it being crap. I got bitten by this once. It turns out there's a variable φ(crap) representing the amount of time you have to work at a company before – what I thought were – self-deprecating comments, about the app being a piece of shit, are regarded as self -deprecating, rather than an outsider trashing their…

What you're saying is that the app is crap, everyone knows it is crap, but it's a faux pas for the new person to say it? If so, it seems it is not really about the crappy app but more about the in-group pecking order . Wish adults would be mature enough to forgo things like that.

I think the other person got it spot-on in their reply. It's not about social pecking order - a long-time employee could well be at the bottom of the social pecking order - it's about whether it's perceived to be your own work that you're deprecating, rather than their and not your work. It doesn't matter if it's someone else's too, only that it's yours in part.

This is closely related to the ingroup vs outgroup distinction, but not quite the same: e.g. I could be a former employee, even someone who was disliked or who left in disgrace, and still be under the aegis of the 'us' in this context.

Edit: On reflection, I kinda ignored the rest of your message and got stuck on the answer to your clarifying question. I do totally agree with your point about maturity. I suppose my only caveat is that I was moaning/joking/joking-and-moaning at the time, rather than making a serious point that would have been relevant to our work, so I don't think it was immaturity in a sense that caused any actual problems.

Re: Ask HN: Am I the only “unlucky” software engineer?

#158

Post by samhw »

dusted wrote: post #153
bjourne wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you're saying is that the app is crap, everyone knows it is crap, but it's a faux pas for the new person to say it? If so, it seems it is not really about the crappy app but more about the in-group pecking order . Wish adults would be mature enough to forgo things like that.

Thing is, context means something to people, a new person coming in starting shitting all over everything has no context for saying that, they may be right, but the don't have any shared experiences of why it is so, and that makes a difference. Having suffered through things together, it makes a difference, it softens the words, or at least, it points them away from people, and into situations, situations of the past…

Thanks for the explanation! Like I said in my own reply (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29512035), this is spot-on and better than I could have expressed it – and, clearly, than I did express it – myself. It's about whether you're part of the 'we' whose work you're deprecating.

Re: Ask HN: Am I the only “unlucky” software engineer?

#159

Post by drakonka »

robin_reala wrote: post #62
JensRantil wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hm, out of six interviews I've had in Sweden only a single one did that kind of test. Norm might be an overstatement.

Maybe it’s centred on bigger companies? But anecdotally with colleagues, and based on my experience, they’re the norm.

I'm in Scandanavia and luckily have never run into any mention of any personality or IQ test at any interview process or recruiter discussion, both in the context of big and small companies. Never heard any friends bring them up, either. Hopefully if they ever were the norm they're less common now.
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