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Plan Ahead for Phase Out of 3G Cellular Networks and Service

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41–50 of 99 posts

Re: Plan Ahead for Phase Out of 3G Cellular Networks and Service

#41
It's shameful that 3G wasn't designed to be supported forever, and be backwards compatible with 4G, 5G, 6G, etc.

Just like WiFi standards are (mostly) backwards compatible forever.

From a design perspective, all that's needed is a way to timeslice or frequency slice the new and old signals. Then the cost of supporting old 3G devices drops as fewer and fewer of them exist, and dynamic time and frequency allocation can give more and more to 4G/5G/etc.

The infrastructure cost of 3G is large, but that needn't be the case - there are opensource projects that can run all the computation for a whole 3G network, auth, encryption, etc. on a single PC.

Re: Plan Ahead for Phase Out of 3G Cellular Networks and Service

#42

A lot of people in car forums are super upset about this and angry with their specific automaker. But of course, it is happening to all of them that haven't moved off of 3G. https://www.toyota.com/audio-multimedia/support/3g-faq/ https://lexus2.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/10537/~/... https://www.subaru.com/3g-network-retirement.html?SIE=9ad00c... Etc. https://autobala.com/how-3g-shutdown-in-2022-will-ruin-yo…

A few years back I got a handful of letters about getting my Nissan LEAF's radio updated from 2g to 3g. They wanted to charge me $200 USD for it. I didn't bother and it's ended up resulting in very little change for me - Mostly features I didn't really use.

It's nice to know what just a few years later I'd be facing the same problem again.

Re: Plan Ahead for Phase Out of 3G Cellular Networks and Service

#43
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

unlikely as long as you can't switch out the modem and antenna. So you would need: - a new antenna - a new modem - a driver working with your CPU/OS, which is likely to not be the case - a way to replace the parts Sometimes the modem is part of the CPU package, making it impossible. Driver limitations make it often even impossible to produce "the same phone but with just another modem", not even speaking about upgrad…

A single board computer could get you close to these requirements, as long as there are USB dongles for everything [0]. That takes care of 1, 2, and 4. As for drivers, I'm not sure if you can pipe voice calls across these (VOIP, yes, but cellular calls? I have no clue how that works). [0] https://www.amazon.com/4g-usb-modem/s?k=4g+usb+modem

with SIP ATA you can probably get it to work with enough work. I don't know whether any actually support enough of TS 24.229 to actually work with a VoLTE network.

Re: Plan Ahead for Phase Out of 3G Cellular Networks and Service

#44

Newer phone networks are much more efficient than old ones. For a certain amount of 3G spectrum the carrier can serve more customers at higher data rates with 4G or 5G. From their viewpoint it is expensive to keep serving 3G customers.

Ironically 2g will still be around forever as a fallback and so much industrisl equipment relies on it At least thats what uk operators told me

As far as I know, since mid-2018, all 2G networks are offline in Australia. I've seen similar articles for other countries.

Re: Plan Ahead for Phase Out of 3G Cellular Networks and Service

#45
For contrast. In the UK 3G has another 12 years ahead of it [0]

Not everyone uses a smartphone with the constant consumer churn. I've had a good quality Nokia "dumb" phone for 10 years and have no reason to buy a new one, I need a new £10 battery soon and then it will keep going for another ten years in this country.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-59583783

Re: Plan Ahead for Phase Out of 3G Cellular Networks and Service

#46
post #9
post #3

I worked very very briefly in the wireless service industry on UAPs and large scale cell antenna receivers. To me, this doesn't seem as much a conspiracy to obsolete old phones as a practical stance to not need to have two copies of antennas on every tower. The old antennas used in 3G don't go up to the frequencies needed by true 5G, so they need new ones. If they're developing new ones, they don't want to have to ke…

I think it's also about: - later recycling frequencies - reducing maintenance burden (by not maintaining 3G) - as far as I remember 3G as serious security vulnerabilities Also most smart phones only a lifetime of 3-5 years at most, and even then people tend to replace them early due to braking them and for vanity. So there are probably not too many smart phones around which do not support 4G and which are not a secur…

later recycling frequencies

Yeah this is what I would think. My understanding is that in North America a lot of plum 800MHz bands are currently occupied by 3G umts.

edit - yes, both Verizon and AT&T are dedicating a single band of 850MHz spectrum for umts. So this would let them move that to 4G or 5G.

Re: Plan Ahead for Phase Out of 3G Cellular Networks and Service

#47

A lot of people in car forums are super upset about this and angry with their specific automaker. But of course, it is happening to all of them that haven't moved off of 3G. https://www.toyota.com/audio-multimedia/support/3g-faq/ https://lexus2.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/10537/~/... https://www.subaru.com/3g-network-retirement.html?SIE=9ad00c... Etc. https://autobala.com/how-3g-shutdown-in-2022-will-ruin-yo…

A few years back I got a handful of letters about getting my Nissan LEAF's radio updated from 2g to 3g. They wanted to charge me $200 USD for it. I didn't bother and it's ended up resulting in very little change for me - Mostly features I didn't really use. It's nice to know what just a few years later I'd be facing the same problem again.

I've been told that on my Subaru, if I subscribe to the services that need it, they will do the upgrade for free. But if I don't subscribe, they won't do it at all. I'm fine with that, I am unreasonably against subscriptions, lol.

Re: Plan Ahead for Phase Out of 3G Cellular Networks and Service

#48
post #3

I worked very very briefly in the wireless service industry on UAPs and large scale cell antenna receivers. To me, this doesn't seem as much a conspiracy to obsolete old phones as a practical stance to not need to have two copies of antennas on every tower. The old antennas used in 3G don't go up to the frequencies needed by true 5G, so they need new ones. If they're developing new ones, they don't want to have to ke…

Something here doesn’t make sense to me.

The retired 3G spectrum will be used for 4G and 5G (per the FCC article) so the antennas could be reused as the carrier frequency will not change. For a concrete example, if you’re running 3G at 900 MHz, why would running 5G at 900 MHz require a different antenna?

On that note, saying the antennas don’t go up to true 5G frequencies is a bit…misleading? Because while the frequency goes up, the wavelength goes down so the antenna should shrink.

Re: Plan Ahead for Phase Out of 3G Cellular Networks and Service

#49
post #3

I worked very very briefly in the wireless service industry on UAPs and large scale cell antenna receivers. To me, this doesn't seem as much a conspiracy to obsolete old phones as a practical stance to not need to have two copies of antennas on every tower. The old antennas used in 3G don't go up to the frequencies needed by true 5G, so they need new ones. If they're developing new ones, they don't want to have to ke…

> As a side effect, anyone still using a 3G device needs to buy a new one, but I don't think that is the main driver for the move. Despite the positives, this feels kind of sad. If you look at software, many of the older browsers out there can't even open simple modern webpages. After years, i grow weary of the churn, i've gone from Windows 98 to Windows 10 now, through numerous versions of Debian/Ubuntu and CentOS/F…

> someone decided to change something and deprecate the older stuff

I definitely understand the pain. In some cases, it's stupid moves. In other cases, it's about reclaiming the resources for something better. With wireless, should a small number of people who want to use old devices mean that we can't use those wireless frequencies for newer high-speed data? Maybe carriers should start pricing based no how much bandwidth you're using in terms of frequencies. Well, you're using a device that is 1/10th as efficient as a modern device so we're charging you many times more than what we charge customers with modern devices.

Sometimes there's inefficient stuff that impacts whether others can enjoy what they want.

> But what is the alternative?

The alternative is that we decide that new stuff (possibly progress) isn't something we want. I say possibly progress because some stuff is questionably progress. Do we need YouTube, TikTok, online games, etc? No, but they can surely be nice. We could certainly go back to the days of 2GB wireless plans and live like that. Heck, we lived without wireless data for a long time.

With some of the software churn, it just becomes hard to support so many different configurations and people concentrate on the ones that are commonly used.

> keep up with everything and partake in more consumerism than I should

Some of it is consumerism. Some of it is progress. I think you're slightly unfairly conflating it all as consumerism. The ability to offer unlimited data plans and faster data speeds is progress over slow, limited data plans. The problem you're facing is that everyone else changes and you don't see the point of it. Imagine everyone started speaking NewEnglish. You might see nothing wrong with English and it's not like English no longer works, but given that everyone else has changed, it no longer works for what you want - communicating with others around you.

Realistically, this is part of living in a civilization. You have to go along with what the civilization is doing and what will interface with them. This isn't even a modern phenomena in some ways. You talk about having an old computer that you want to be able to interface with others safely (view modern web pages, keep running software, etc). I'm now thinking of the Reformation where literally if you didn't adopt the new religion you might be killed. That's an extreme example, but there's a lot that people must do to be a part of our civilization.

Humans are social beings and our technology is no less social. It's why people have fights over things like programming languages. If PHP is a "dead language" it means that the next generation of engineers won't learn it and it will become less useful over time because fewer people will be improving it, writing libraries for it, and fewer systems will support it well. If a lot of people leave Android for iOS, there will be fewer apps for Android, fewer device options, etc. It's why people have fights over which next-gen console will win - because if they pick the losing device, they might not get a lot of games. I mean, if you bought a Dreamcast, you ended up buying something that never realized its potential because of the social context where game devs didn't make enough games for it.

Our technology is social. If you're not going along with that social context, you're going to miss out on things. In a certain way, you want everyone to support what you like even if it doesn't make sense for them (in terms of time and money).

Again, I understand the pain and there is a lot of consumerism. However, there's also progress in the mix as well. As the social context of the tech changes, you have to keep up with it to an extent. Companies don't want to keep supporting a 20-year-old OS because a few people don't see the need for the new features introduced in newer versions. Should you pay for a support contract for the old OS you want updates for? How expensive should that be given how few people will be paying for the engineering time to make that happen? Likewise, if 3G users want to keep their network around, how much should they pay for their plans to compensate for the fact that they're using a much greater share of a scarce resource (wireless spectrum)? $500/mo rather than $50/mo? It kinda gets to the point that it's realistically impossible since someone isn't going to pay $500/mo instead of upgrading their phone. Likewise, you aren't going to pay thousands per year for a support contract on an obsolete OS.

Re: Plan Ahead for Phase Out of 3G Cellular Networks and Service

#50

A lot of people in car forums are super upset about this and angry with their specific automaker. But of course, it is happening to all of them that haven't moved off of 3G. https://www.toyota.com/audio-multimedia/support/3g-faq/ https://lexus2.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/10537/~/... https://www.subaru.com/3g-network-retirement.html?SIE=9ad00c... Etc. https://autobala.com/how-3g-shutdown-in-2022-will-ruin-yo…

This reminds me of all the 90s luxury cars with analog cellular phones integrated into the center consoles quickly becoming useless in the 2000s. Except worse considering how much these systems are integrated into some cars.
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