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Julian Assange can be extradited to the US, court rules

bbc.com

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Re: Julian Assange can be extradited to the US, court rules

#321

Post by leto_ii »

FredPret wrote: post #244
kstenerud wrote: post #204

This should be a sobering view of how the world really works. Above a certain threshold, every veneer of civilization vanishes no matter what the country (some have a higher threshold than others). At this level, only power matters. And the first rule of power is: Don't embarrass the powerful unless you can call on a lot of power to defend yourself. Laws can't protect you; they can be thwarted and bent, and the legal…

Ultimately, right and wrong, good and evil are human judgments, sometimes acted upon by humans using human power. There’s nothing transcendent about it. The international rules-based order is safeguarded by powerful entities… because it’s in their best interest. One goes against that self-interest at one’s peril.

> right and wrong, good and evil are human judgments

This is nonsense that opens up the possibility to justify pretty much any kind of abuse or atrocity.

> The international rules-based order is safeguarded by powerful entities… because it’s in their best interest.

If the international order was actually rules-based it would have been safeguarded by international institutions, not by a single capricious superpower.

> One goes against that self-interest at one’s peril.

This one eludes me. Who's going against who's interest?

Re: Julian Assange can be extradited to the US, court rules

#322

Post by jollybean »

pydry wrote: post #256
kstenerud wrote: post #204

This should be a sobering view of how the world really works. Above a certain threshold, every veneer of civilization vanishes no matter what the country (some have a higher threshold than others). At this level, only power matters. And the first rule of power is: Don't embarrass the powerful unless you can call on a lot of power to defend yourself. Laws can't protect you; they can be thwarted and bent, and the legal…

I suspect Assange doesn't regret this. I kind of get the impression that becoming a martyr was a sacrifice he was prepared to make if he managed to rip off the mask and expose the unbridled imperialist evil lurking underneath the "civilized press conference veneer" presented by the US government.

"he managed to rip off the mask and expose the unbridled imperialist evil lurking"

That's a bit absurd given showed the total opposite:

Gigabytes of diplomatic cables of highly sensitive data revealed a US Diplomatic Corps trying to do a decent job in a world rife with ugly corruption.

The 'Arab Street' saw the information and they saw the US trying to assuage and nudge brutally corrupt leaders.

The cables didn't unite Arabs against the US - they exposed the ruthless corruption of their own governments and 'united' them against their own governments.

I was in Tunisia near the time of the revolts and I can tell you the thing that pissed them off the most was probably the fact that their disgraced PM had Canadian citizenship (i.e. citizen of convenience, as many do) and simply flew to Montreal to enjoy Canadian Constitutional protections and avoid prosecution.

It's shocking that someone could read about Arab governments doing 'very bad things', the US government trying to stop them, and then come away with the notion that the US is the bad actor.

It speaks to some kind of deeply held ideology or perspective that can make facts that point one way, seem like they point in the other direction.

Assange will have to face trial given the fact that he may have explicitly helped Manning break into systems of National Security, which is definitely illegal. I don't think he did, but there's been some evidence made public that indicates that it's possible. Soon we'll have a court case and see the evidence.

Re: Julian Assange can be extradited to the US, court rules

#323

Post by brandelune »

pydry wrote: post #256
kstenerud wrote: post #204

This should be a sobering view of how the world really works. Above a certain threshold, every veneer of civilization vanishes no matter what the country (some have a higher threshold than others). At this level, only power matters. And the first rule of power is: Don't embarrass the powerful unless you can call on a lot of power to defend yourself. Laws can't protect you; they can be thwarted and bent, and the legal…

I suspect Assange doesn't regret this. I kind of get the impression that becoming a martyr was a sacrifice he was prepared to make if he managed to rip off the mask and expose the unbridled imperialist evil lurking underneath the "civilized press conference veneer" presented by the US government.

I suspect Assange does not want to be tortured and murdered and thus does not want this. Are you insane ?

Re: Julian Assange can be extradited to the US, court rules

#324

Post by cainxinth »

harry8 wrote: post #255
cainxinth wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “he’s a world famous journalist with prior work” That’s a claim not a fact. It’s also possible he was an asset for a hostile intelligence service posing as a journalist. I’m not normally one to side with Mike Pompeo, but I agree with his assessment on this one: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/13/us/politics/mike-pompeo-c... “‘WikiLeaks walks like a hostile intelligence service and talks like a hostile intelligence…

It's a fact he's world famous. We've heard of him. It's a fact he's a journalist. We've all read his journalism or at least know of its existence. [1] It's a claim that "he was an asset for a hostile intelligence service" and one with zero evidence to back it up. Everything Assange has done the New York Times has also done. Every single thing he has been charged with in this case. That's also a fact. [1] https://www.…

> It's a fact he's a journalist. We've all read his journalism or at least know of its existence.

That's circular reasoning. He's a journalist because we read his journalism. And, ergo, his work is journalism because he's a journalist.

It all works out... unless of course, he was just pretending to be a journalist/ activist and was actually working in concert with a hostile intelligence agency to other, less noble, ends.

Re: Julian Assange can be extradited to the US, court rules

#325

Post by mercy_dude »

jollybean wrote: post #295
kstenerud wrote: post #204

This should be a sobering view of how the world really works. Above a certain threshold, every veneer of civilization vanishes no matter what the country (some have a higher threshold than others). At this level, only power matters. And the first rule of power is: Don't embarrass the powerful unless you can call on a lot of power to defend yourself. Laws can't protect you; they can be thwarted and bent, and the legal…

This is ridiculous. Assange is alleged to have cooperated with a member of the US forces to release gigabytes of diplomatic cables etc. - which is possibly a crime. In all but rare cases, you absolutely do not have the right to break into systems of national security and release arbitrary information under the guise of 'journalism'. His extradition is perfectly rational, legal and judicially legitimate. The Abu Garib…

> because he did the right thing, not the wrong thing.

And who defines the right or wrong? Assange revealed among many things how CIA collects data of US citizens abusing patriot act without warrants.

Re: Julian Assange can be extradited to the US, court rules

#326

Post by unknownus3r »

I’m from the US and from my perspective he’s certainly an enemy of my country and working to undermine it. A country cannot function if nameless underlings do not carry out the agenda set forth by the elected and appointed people in charge. There are many problems with entrenched bureaucracy but having secrets leaked weakens American power and our government’s ability to handle the problems we face. If you see mudge’s talk about him from way back when, the grudge he holds against the US may be just over funding research. Inciting and assisting Americans who have sworn to protect our secrets to leak them is something I think needs to be stopped as a National security threat. There are a lot of disingenuous comparisons calling this guy a journalist, he’s a lot more than that. Assange is a former hacker and professor and present day activist. Undeniably bright and I respect his technical skills but he’s working against the United States. I’ll say this, though, he’s probably the most trustworthy journalist that walks the earth, sadly

Re: Julian Assange can be extradited to the US, court rules

#327

Post by goodpoint »

mrsuprawsm wrote: post #264
pydry wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect Assange doesn't regret this. I kind of get the impression that becoming a martyr was a sacrifice he was prepared to make if he managed to rip off the mask and expose the unbridled imperialist evil lurking underneath the "civilized press conference veneer" presented by the US government.

It's a bit of a sad sacrifice, though. Nothing (significant) has changed about the US's imperialism as a result of his disclosures, it's just mildly more acknowledged.

> mildly more acknowledged

This is already a very big achievement for just one individual.

How many people, activist or not, have been killed without anybody noticing?

Re: Julian Assange can be extradited to the US, court rules

#328

Post by tootie »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #26
janmo wrote: post #5

Will he be tried by a common jury or a military one? No way a common jury finds him guilty.

> No way a common jury finds him guilty I wish I could still have your faith in my fellow countrymen. Sadly I believe yours won't survive this trial.

The internet has predicted the imminent assassination of every prominent opposition politician, journalist and speaker for as long as I've been online and it's never happened. Glenn Greenwood is fine, Sy Hersh is fine, Bernie Sanders and Ron Paul are fine. Meanwhile Julian Assange was happy to have people believe the DNC leak came from Seth Rich despite knowing he got it from Russia.

Re: Julian Assange can be extradited to the US, court rules

#329

Post by pydry »

jollybean wrote: post #322
pydry wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect Assange doesn't regret this. I kind of get the impression that becoming a martyr was a sacrifice he was prepared to make if he managed to rip off the mask and expose the unbridled imperialist evil lurking underneath the "civilized press conference veneer" presented by the US government.

"he managed to rip off the mask and expose the unbridled imperialist evil lurking" That's a bit absurd given showed the total opposite: Gigabytes of diplomatic cables of highly sensitive data revealed a US Diplomatic Corps trying to do a decent job in a world rife with ugly corruption. The 'Arab Street' saw the information and they saw the US trying to assuage and nudge brutally corrupt leaders. The cables didn't uni…

>The cables didn't unite Arabs against the US - they exposed the ruthless corruption of their own governments

I'm sensing that you believe that this is something you think that should have been concealed from them for their own good.

>It's shocking that someone could read about Arab governments doing 'very bad things', the US government trying to stop them, and then come away with the notion that the US is the bad actor.

Collateral murder is mostly what people are condemning. Also what this extradition was all about.

It's weird that you seem to believe that the war crimes are not relevant to the discussion about whether the US is "the bad actor".

Well, perhaps not that weird. Your reply suggests that you may have been part of the institution that committed and covered up the war crimes (unless you were in tunisia for a different reason).

>Assange will have to face trial given the fact that he may have explicitly helped Manning break into systems of National Security, which is definitely illegal.

Oh yes. Exposing US war crimes IS definitely illegal - more illegal than committing them, apparently.

Just like Rosa Parks sitting at the back of a bus - that was illegal too.

Re: Julian Assange can be extradited to the US, court rules

#330

Post by notahacker »

ChrisKnott wrote: post #201
revolvingocelot wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A whole paragraph dedicated to how anonymous internet commenters could be fake spin delivery vehicles, then the suggestion that Assange has been charged with "a relatively minor criminal offence", completely eliding a bunch of politically-motivated now-dismissed sexual assault charges that were the actual impetus for him to hide in a foreign embassy for years. It'd be one thing if he was hiding from a "5 year max" ch…

> "completely eliding a bunch of politically-motivated now-dismissed sexual assault charges that were the actual impetus for him to hide in a foreign embassy for years" Isn't this the total opposite of what Assange and his supporters were saying? He was claiming that we wasn't avoiding the sexual offence EAW, but hiding in the embassy because of the US indictment, to which the Swedish allegations were (he claimed) so…

Yep. The Assange story that he was totally willing to answer to the rape charges but had to flee to a country that wouldn't extradite him to the US for something else isn't really helped by him being extradited by the "safe" country for charges filed years later after a change of government. I'm not convinced of the merits of the DOJ case against Assange either technically or politically, but its notable how many other people publicly known to have been involved in the dissemination of the Collateral Murder video have continued to do investigative journalism without having charges of any sort filed against them, never mind two separate Wikileaks supporters accusing them of sex offences ...
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