How do you fix a stroad? • Hacker News Board

Re: How do you fix a stroad?

#271

Post by mcv » Fri, Dec 10, 2021, 10:10 AM UTC

cycomanic wrote: post #215

rob74 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the pandemic has accelerated this, but everyone involved needs to be open for the possibility from the beginning. Here in Germany when someone proposes something like this there is a storm of protest from small businesses: "what we are already on the brink of bankruptcy with everyone ordering stuff online or going to supermarkets with huge parking lots and now you want to cut us off from our customers do you wan…

I've written about this on a similar post previously. The town I grew up in in Germany (Lüneburg for those familiar with Germany), turned some of the central city into a pedastrian mall about 30-40 years ago. I still remember the local newspaper being full of angry letters from local businesses complaining that this would be the death of the city centre, everyone would go shopping at the big malls on the outside of t…

I've heard similar stories about Paris and other places. Business often resist changing their street to a pedestrian area, and every time it turns out that it will actually boost their business.

Re: How do you fix a stroad?

#272

Post by kofejnik » Fri, Dec 10, 2021, 10:11 AM UTC

sien wrote: post #136

32kfjh23 wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does someone saying that things could be built better come off as high level elitism? I’ve stayed in small European towns where they have the cultural amenities of an American city perhaps five to six times its population. Normal people can live good, healthy lives there. Normal people struggling to survive while driving everywhere with few healthy options in sight is a manufactured issue.

When someone says : "Its the overweight, white trash, lower back tattoo of aesthetics." It completely comes over as high level elitism.

Not just elitism, it's actual racism, quite simply. Can you imagine the outrage if it was "overweight, black trash, gang tattoos of aesthetics"?

Re: How do you fix a stroad?

#273

Post by throwawaysea » Fri, Dec 10, 2021, 10:14 AM UTC

TulliusCicero wrote: post #240

throwawaysea wrote: post #134

Why do you need to “fix” a stroad? Not everyone wants to live in a young bicyclist’s idealistic utopia. The reason people like high speed roads is that it saves time, and time matters. Biking and public transit are both slow compared to cars, and most people like the convenience cars offer. The point to point nature of driving, the faster travel speeds, the protection from weather, the capacity for people/cargo, and…

> The reason people like high speed roads is that it saves time, and time matters. Biking and public transit are both slow compared to cars *Cities build streets primarily around cars* You: Look! Cars are more convenient!! This isn't some iron law of the universe, that cars are faster even for basic errands happens because we choose to make it that way . When I was living on the outskirts of Munich, many short trips…

I keep hearing this line about how cars are faster because cities 'choose' to make it that way. This isn't a convincing argument to me. Cars are fundamentally a faster mode of transportation. Just like walking cannot realize a maximum speed similar to bicycles, neither walking nor biking can realize a maximum speed similar to cars (at least safely). Driving is faster, first and foremost, because cars are faster and not because cities are making other modes slower. The faster travel times that cars unlock is a massive boost to quality of life that many, many people enjoy and take advantage of. That inherent value is why people are willing to pay taxes to fund roads for cars, and why cities have developed road infrastructure. It's not some kind of conspiracy theory to bring down bikes - the reality is that bikes are simply slower and there isn't some deeper level of insight beyond that.

Re: How do you fix a stroad?

#274

Post by jaggederest » Fri, Dec 10, 2021, 10:22 AM UTC

mcv wrote: post #257

trapexit wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Netherlands may not be an English-first country, but something like 95% of the Dutch speak English, a higher percentage than in Canada(!). In central Amsterdam, the default language may as well be English. It is also surprisingly easy for Americans to relocate here if they are in a tech career (keyword: highly-skilled migrant) or remote-working/entrepreneurial (keyword: Dutch-American Friendship Treaty). It's eve…

My son (12) has since yesterday started claiming that Netherland has the second highest percentage of English-speakers in the world. After the UK I guess? But apparently beating out several native English-speaking countries according to at least one measure. No idea what that measure is; I have strong doubts, because as much as the Dutch do indeed have a very strong command of English as a second language, we're real…

> we're really not native speakers, and can be very confidently wrong about idiom or pronunciation, even if we may be better at grammar than many native speakers

Trust me, you have no monopoly on being confidently wrong, I'm in the US and have spent significant time in the Netherlands, and it's my opinion that the Dutch have better English skills than most in the US, precisely because it is learned formally. Many people in the US absorb little from the study of English as a language during education.

Re: How do you fix a stroad?

#275

Post by sokoloff » Fri, Dec 10, 2021, 10:30 AM UTC

TulliusCicero wrote: post #240

throwawaysea wrote: post #134

Why do you need to “fix” a stroad? Not everyone wants to live in a young bicyclist’s idealistic utopia. The reason people like high speed roads is that it saves time, and time matters. Biking and public transit are both slow compared to cars, and most people like the convenience cars offer. The point to point nature of driving, the faster travel speeds, the protection from weather, the capacity for people/cargo, and…

> The reason people like high speed roads is that it saves time, and time matters. Biking and public transit are both slow compared to cars *Cities build streets primarily around cars* You: Look! Cars are more convenient!! This isn't some iron law of the universe, that cars are faster even for basic errands happens because we choose to make it that way . When I was living on the outskirts of Munich, many short trips…

Now we have a set of existing conditions. Including a set of conditioned people, many of whom have arranged their life in light of those conditions.

I think where a lot of proponents of density go wrong is they ignore telling the story of how the transition will work (meaning “not suck”). It’s the urban planning equivalent of skipping step two and just writing down “3. Profit”

“It could all be better once we’ve completed these massive changes.” I agree that’s possible, but while a lot of people have existing conditions that they understand and are basically comfortable with (or even comforted by), I think proponents still have some convincing to do that “their way will be better” and a whole lot of convincing on “and here’s what that would look like in 2023, 2028, 2033, and 2038”.

“First we take away the parking and make these particular roads slower.” “Ok, then what?” “Then it’s ‘better’.”

Re: How do you fix a stroad?

#276

Post by rdl » Fri, Dec 10, 2021, 10:39 AM UTC

zionic wrote: post #163

scrollaway wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NJB is not an "outrage" channel, that is utterly absurd. It's an information channel that mostly shows you how things work in the Netherlands and makes the case that it's a better way than the idiotic car-centric north American way. If you're outraged after watching his videos, it's not his fault, it's the fault of your city planners.

I’m mostly outraged that the YouTube algorithm keeps showing me his crap just because I like cities skylines. His content is trash and despite consistently disliking it YouTube just won’t learn.

I wish there were a way to "block" youtube channels. I feel similarly about this specific content source, but there are a bunch of others who are far worse on other topics.

Re: How do you fix a stroad?

#277

Post by timwaagh » Fri, Dec 10, 2021, 10:41 AM UTC

It's pretty simple. Sacrifice a lane to become a street or parallelweg as we call them here. Put a solid barrier in between the street and road portions. Have access points to the road only indirectly on sidestreets. This is how we 'stroad' in the Netherlands. Of course if you design in this manner from the ground up the result is prettier but it should be perfectly adequate.

Re: How do you fix a stroad?

#278

Post by mellavora » Fri, Dec 10, 2021, 10:45 AM UTC

Kiro wrote: post #260

It's funny. As someone who has never been to the US stroads are what define the American urban landscape for me and what I want to experience. They feel really exotic. It's like being in an American movie or TV show.

Experience as a tourist, or as a parent with children who have bikes?

Re: How do you fix a stroad?

#279

Post by mellavora » Fri, Dec 10, 2021, 10:47 AM UTC

gameman144 wrote: post #234

ehnto wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's usually pretty hard. I guess it depends on your city. But imminent domain can take decades if done with a lot of community backlash.

Not trying to nitpick, but just a heads-up that the term is " eminent domain" (I know it's a pet-peeve when people don't correct me if I'm saying something wrong, but feel free to ignore me if you don't care).

nitpicking, when done respectfully (as you have), makes HN better.

Re: How do you fix a stroad?

#280

Post by paganel » Fri, Dec 10, 2021, 10:58 AM UTC

> Slow traffic; prioritize human movement over auto mobility;

This will most probably bring extra gentrification plus damn the businesses that might need that extra road-traffic for recurring clients. Bicycle-ing in a downtown-ish area is mostly done by people like us (yuppies, more or less), the person who has to get tho his/her job at Walmart or at a logistics center at 5-6AM doesn't have time for this, and after his/her job is done most probably doesn't have the energy for taking a bike-ride just for pleasure. The same goes for walking.