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How do you fix a stroad?

strongtowns.org

51–60 of 411 posts

Re: How do you fix a stroad?

#51

"Stroad" seems to be a recently popularized by strongtowns. I'm curious if anyone has actually managed to measure this sort of thing? My suspicion is that it "stroads" are essentially to-wide streets, and it should be possible to find research indicating that streets should be narrower, because widening them causes people to drive too fast. I was only able to find the following, coverage, though: https://usa.streetsb…

Check out: https://austroads.com.au/about-austroads

https://www.ite.org/

https://www.nationalacademies.org/trb/transportation-researc...

Honestly a lot of research in the transportation engineering field is paywalled. Some state DOTs have research departments that have free resources.

Re: How do you fix a stroad?

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole point is to provide better alternatives to driving such that most people don't need to drive. Having better alternatives to driving also makes driving better as you get less congestion, licensing standards can be raised, there's more money for road maintenance, well designed roads are simply better to drive on, etc.

> such that most people don't need to drive I disagree that they'll accomplish this for most people. In particular, what about all of the people who live in suburbs but work in the city?

Urbanists are extremely critical of the type of zoning that plonks suburbs in the middle of nowhere away from cities too. "R1 Zone" is practically a swear word.

Mixed-use zoning is much more effective. We do this in Europe, it's pretty nice being able to cycle to work and walk to the shops (not that I cycle to work personally, but almost all my jobs have been within cycling range).

Re: How do you fix a stroad?

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole point is to provide better alternatives to driving such that most people don't need to drive. Having better alternatives to driving also makes driving better as you get less congestion, licensing standards can be raised, there's more money for road maintenance, well designed roads are simply better to drive on, etc.

> such that most people don't need to drive I disagree that they'll accomplish this for most people. In particular, what about all of the people who live in suburbs but work in the city?

That's what commuter light rail is for, is Strong Towns against that?

Re: How do you fix a stroad?

#54

Overall, it seems simpler to say that malls, not stroads are the problem. Malls will never be pedestrian friendly. Mall will never be aesthetically pleasant. Roads going by malls are usually stroads and might be made somewhat better. But that's such a trivial question compared to the pox that is mall urban organization that I really don't care.

A big, climate controlled, pedestrian-only space packed full of different kinds of shops isn't pedestrian-friendly? Give me a break. On the subjective side I think a lot of them look pretty nice.

Have you ever tried to walk to a mall from where you live or work?

Re: How do you fix a stroad?

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole point is to provide better alternatives to driving such that most people don't need to drive. Having better alternatives to driving also makes driving better as you get less congestion, licensing standards can be raised, there's more money for road maintenance, well designed roads are simply better to drive on, etc.

> such that most people don't need to drive I disagree that they'll accomplish this for most people. In particular, what about all of the people who live in suburbs but work in the city?

Bus systems can work well to move commuters to rail-based mass-transit that bring them into the city. If the suburbs sprawl too far out, you can also plop down park-and-rides at the terminal stations of the mass transit system.

Why do you specifically need to drive and park at the exact location you're going to, especially when the land cost of the storage place of your empty car is prohibitively expensive (as they tend to be in urban CBDs)?

Re: How do you fix a stroad?

#56

I love that this highlights an oft-missed truth about Urbanism and shifting our urban landscape: this is going to take a long time. It's going to take many decades, and it's going to require waiting for individual human beings to literally die before we get to start making the changes we want to make. I mean, unless we can get someone really excited about this into federal office in which case it _might_ be possible…

I think a true shift towards Urbanism in our cities may be only possible if there's a whole lot of money in it for somebody with political leverage. But who? I'm not sure. Real estate developers? They're already making money hand over fist building our cities in the shitty car-centric way. When the US made its shift to car-centricity with the interstate highway system, there was a ton of money in it for oil companies…

>Who "wins" when we shift our building patterns towards Urbanism? Aside from everyone who gets to live there, of course. I feel like big political changes like this don't happen unless someone who stands to gain is busy lobbying to make it happen. And I don't know what, if any, entity stands to gain a lot from building pedestrian-friendly, dense, beautiful cities.

You may be interested in a policy the UK government is considering:

https://policyexchange.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/Strong-Subu...

The idea is to let small groups of residents (a single street) vote to loosen planning restrictions in specific ways, allowing for incremental intensification of suburbs.

Re: How do you fix a stroad?

#57
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> such that most people don't need to drive I disagree that they'll accomplish this for most people. In particular, what about all of the people who live in suburbs but work in the city?

That's what commuter light rail is for, is Strong Towns against that?

Sure, I'll acknowledge that that could fix this problem. My complaint then becomes that they want to make everywhere hostile to drivers before commuter light rail gets built, when there's a chance that it never will.

Re: How do you fix a stroad?

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A big, climate controlled, pedestrian-only space packed full of different kinds of shops isn't pedestrian-friendly? Give me a break. On the subjective side I think a lot of them look pretty nice.

Have you ever tried to walk to a mall from where you live or work?

Inner-city malls are awesome for this— think the Toronto Eaton Centre which literally has a subway station at each end of it!

But yeah suburban malls which are surrounded by an ocean of parking? Terrible.

And not a lot of downtown malls / department stores have made it through the past three decades. High cost of space and low value add vs online shopping are a tough combination to be up against.

Re: How do you fix a stroad?

#59
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I imagine you'd change your tune if you had to choose between driving on roads vs. stroads professionally , as a truck driver, cab driver, etc. Roads — separated thoroughfares exclusively for cars, engineered to remove anything that would require stopping — minimize travel time, gas costs, and accidents. Stroads do none of those things. There's a reason that every Uber driver who has the opportunity will take you ont…

Truckers can't be big fans of narrower streets either. It seems to me more like a stroad just takes a street and makes it more convenient to through traffic with a bit of compromise to ease of crossing but not even particularly much detriment to walking on a single side.

> makes it more convenient to through traffic

Yes, and this is a bad thing. The point of streets is to disincentivize through traffic, so that people can actually enjoy being outside in their neighbourhoods without worrying about getting hit by a motorist.

Well-designed cities don't rely on 18-wheelers being able to pass through their suburbs. In fact, they design to prevent that. Instead, an arterial road network allows overland shipping traffic to arrive and terminate at industrial hubs and big-box stores within cities; whereupon cargo is then transshipped onto "street-sized" delivery vehicles for last-mile delivery to homes and retail shops.

Logistics architectures designed before the advent of stroads still work this way, even in stroaded cities. For example, USPS: big trucks between hubs; little slow-moving trucks for the last mile.

> a bit of compromise to ease of crossing

Perhaps "a bit" if you're imagining the goal of a pedestrian is to commute. It's not too bad to cross a stroad once a day to get to and from a train station, sure.

But many of the worst stroads, exist in place of streets in what could and should be outdoor shopping malls, transforming them instead into strip malls. "A bunch of businesses on either side of a busy road" does not invite browsing. If the goal of the businesses in that area was to congregate together to achieve the sort of back-and-forth "let's go to X while we're here" foot traffic that a popular mall receives, then the "elevation" of a street into a stroad basically ruins the whole premise.

And, of course, there's the stroads in residential areas, where in cities where these were laid out as streets, children would literally be allowed to play in the street — not crossing, but using the street itself as a place to be present in — because traffic was going at a reasonable speed to react in time to stop if they saw children playing. Today, that safe speed is reserved for "school zones." Why should the area around a school be safer for children to be present in than the area immediately outside your home?

> not even particularly much detriment to walking on a single side.

...if you trust drivers. Stroads put sidewalks in the middle of what, on a road, would be the ditch area for cars to roll to a stop on when they're out of control. On a stroad, the cars aren't going much slower (for a few minutes, between stoplights), so cars still need that ditch area. But on a stroad, that ditch area has people walking in it. Bad idea, no?

...and if there aren't features like overpasses as part of the stroad, where all pretense of pedestrian access — especially accessible pedestrian access — is usually forgotten.

...and if it's doesn't snow where you live. Stroad sidewalks are rarely de-iced the way the stroads themselves are. In fact they're often iced — snowblowers taking ice and snow and blowing it off the stroad and onto its vestigial sidewalks.

(And don't get me started on non-separated stroad "bike lanes." Often sharing the same space as parking cars, cars turning into cross-streets, or worst, the suddenly open doors of parked cars.)

Re: How do you fix a stroad?

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> such that most people don't need to drive I disagree that they'll accomplish this for most people. In particular, what about all of the people who live in suburbs but work in the city?

Urbanists are extremely critical of the type of zoning that plonks suburbs in the middle of nowhere away from cities too. "R1 Zone" is practically a swear word. Mixed-use zoning is much more effective. We do this in Europe, it's pretty nice being able to cycle to work and walk to the shops (not that I cycle to work personally, but almost all my jobs have been within cycling range).

But those suburbs already exist. What should we do for all of the people who already live in them? (And keep in mind that there's usually a good reason that people chose to not just live in an inner city in the first place.)
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