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Defund the Police meets the crime wave

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Re: Defund the Police meets the crime wave

#291

Post by MisterBastahrd »

WheelsAtLarge wrote: post #242
scrollbar wrote: post #18

I read most of the article, in which the author implies that defunding the police increases crime, and blames the people in charge of Oakland with this crime. Yet I recalled hearing that police budgets in Oakland were steady to up this year, despite the protests. A quick search seems to confirm this: https://www.ktvu.com/news/oakland-didnt-cut-any-money-from-t... >Despite claims to the contrary, the Oakland City Coun…

His main point is that defunding the police without an alternative that has been proven to reduce crime does the opposite. It increases crime over time. What he outlines is true. I hear a lot about cutting the police but little to nothing about what will replace it as a proven way to reduce crime. Also, all budgets need to increase just to keep up with inflation. So just because a budget is increased or it stays the…

His main point is a straw man, since none of the "defunding" initiatives are as banal as simply taking money away from the entire picture. Defunding has always been about reallocating the money to help fix the root causes of criminal behavior in ways that don't involve a bunch of middle aged men in uniforms pretending to be the heroes of their own action movies.

Re: Defund the Police meets the crime wave

#292

Post by Fervicus »

alphabettsy wrote: post #257
Fervicus wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Related to OPs point, Proposition 47 in California reclassified certain thefts under $950 to a misdemeanor instead of a felony. There is evidence that this has resulted in increases in such crimes.

I don’t believe this argument. The dollar amount was $400 previously. Most shoplifting was already under $400 and I’m being asked to believe, from unreliable sources, that changing it to $950 alone changed things? Misdemeanors still carry punishment and possible jail time. What’s missing?

California Property Crime Surge Is Unintended Consequence of Proposition 47: https://www.independent.org/publications/article.asp?id=9417

Re: Defund the Police meets the crime wave

#293

Post by MisterBastahrd »

rafale wrote: post #186
alphabettsy wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This same racist narrative existed back before Rap, at one time it was jazz, it’s their nature or culture. Anything to avoid looking more deeply.

Jazz never glorified crime. Big difference here. You are making a false equivalence.

Jazz was literally born in brothels and bars owned by gangsters. It doesn't exist without actual criminals LITERALLY supporting its birth financially.

Re: Defund the Police meets the crime wave

#294

Post by inawarminister »

cmh89 wrote: post #275
giantg2 wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not necessarily wrong, but if the conditions of any job are such that people are no longer interested in doing it, it becomes harder to attract, replace, and retain people. Reluctance of police to get involved or respond to incidents, law enforcement discretion, is not new and has a long history, including abuses and refusal of service. The real question is how can we attract and retain officers that want to d…

> The real question is how can we attract and retain officers that want to do the job? Maybe the job just doesn't make sense in modern America? If police as a concept didn't exist already, no one would create it. If you broke it down into its parts, you find plenty of people who would sign up to handle mental health crisis and plenty of people to sign up to handle quality of life problems. You'd have a third group th…

>If police as a concept didn't exist already, no one would create it.

Eh? Community policing has been an universal in every culture. Not in the way conventional "modern"/Western police forces are, which was invented in Paris, but city and village militias took turns standing guard and arrest/whack away violators, drunkards, thieves, etc.

So if there's no police, expect communities to make their own. Hell, don't crime gangs like the Mafia have their own professional policing forces? To catch members who are too violent, or dissuade informing the state/police?

Re: Defund the Police meets the crime wave

#295

Post by MisterBastahrd »

throwawaygh wrote: post #206
keewee7 wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Funny how upper-middle class kids listen to the same songs and end up working at FAANGs, banks, law firms, hospitals, etc. How many upper-middle class kids listen to Chicago SoundCloud rappers?

I'd guess a fair number. Literally everyone in Gen X listened to NWA.

Every white kid in America listened to Public Enemy and Rage Against the Machine and had the Chronic LP in their CD players. 10 years later, kids the same age were listening to Eminem talk about putting 9 inch nails through his eyelids and killing his mom and somehow we ended up fine.

Re: Defund the Police meets the crime wave

#296

Post by the_cat_kittles »

WalterBright wrote: post #30
the_cat_kittles wrote: post #15

this article has no content. just show some contextualized statistics of how police funding correlates with crime. in seattle, it really hasnt from what ive seen. but if you have compelling numbers, go ahead

Seattle crime statistics are misleading. It's been reported many times that since the police no longer even show up for shoplifting crimes, business owners no longer bother to report it. Nobody knows what the crime rate actually is as a result. But the accountants at the retail stores know, and they're raising prices, installing armored doors, or simply leaving the city. The local bank branch I patronize now sports a…

spd total spending went up every year 2016 to 2020 i believe. doesnt that suggest the money isnt doing much?

Re: Defund the Police meets the crime wave

#297

Post by pengaru »

gcheong wrote: post #288
pengaru wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meh, there's a whole lot of virtue signaling going on in a place like SF. What people say vs. what they do privately rarely align in my experience. It's even worse in LA IMO.

Virtue signaling about what though? The people I know that are pro-gun here aren't shy about it but they're not whining about their 2nd Amendment rights all the time either.

> Virtue signaling about what though?

Is this a deliberate strawman?

In a place like SF there's a lot of pressure to conform, and it's not in a pro-gun right-leaning trajectory. So what I mean to say is there's plenty of presentation of conformity, and it's often inauthentic. The stakes are high in a place like SF. People will keep their mouth shut or even fly the opposition's flag in the interests of preserving/increasing their salaries and stock refreshes until they can GTFO with their spoils in tow.

Re: Defund the Police meets the crime wave

#298

Post by alphabettsy »

Fervicus wrote: post #292
alphabettsy wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t believe this argument. The dollar amount was $400 previously. Most shoplifting was already under $400 and I’m being asked to believe, from unreliable sources, that changing it to $950 alone changed things? Misdemeanors still carry punishment and possible jail time. What’s missing?

California Property Crime Surge Is Unintended Consequence of Proposition 47: https://www.independent.org/publications/article.asp?id=9417

It’s a pretty good read and still nothing definitive.

When the property crime goes back up to where it was two years before I’m having a hard time seeing anything conclusive.

How do I know that police choosing not to pursue or investigate minor property crime after the passage of Prop 47 is not the cause?

Maybe it’s part of a greater social and economic shift in the region?

Are no other factors to be considered and ruled out?

Given the considerable cost of criminalization and incarceration it’s amazing to me that it seems to be the only solution being offered.

The author does provide a more holistic solution, but I can’t say I’m anymore convinced about the roughly $500 change making a big difference.

Re: Defund the Police meets the crime wave

#299

Post by alphabettsy »

whimsicalism wrote: post #270
alphabettsy wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting because I’m all for bail reform and alternative punishment for petty crime, but a smash-and-grab seems awfully brazen. Bail seems appropriate for someone stealing an unattended bike, less so for other crimes.

what sort of petty crimes, that previously had mandatory jail time, are you even thinking of? to me, cutting a bike lock and smash & grabbing are like definitional petty crimes.

Stealing a cellphone can still be a felony based on the amounts we’re talking about.

For me there’s a distinction between entering a locked building and stealing a bike locked on the sidewalk. It’s arbitrary I know.

Re: Defund the Police meets the crime wave

#300

Post by sitkack »

scrollbar wrote: post #18

I read most of the article, in which the author implies that defunding the police increases crime, and blames the people in charge of Oakland with this crime. Yet I recalled hearing that police budgets in Oakland were steady to up this year, despite the protests. A quick search seems to confirm this: https://www.ktvu.com/news/oakland-didnt-cut-any-money-from-t... >Despite claims to the contrary, the Oakland City Coun…

The part where police forces across the country in the wake of Defund, did a work-stoppage strike (illegal) and basically said, "swim in your sht". The data will bear this out.
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