Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

‘Tipping point’ makes partisan polarization irreversible in research model

news.cornell.edu

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 82 posts

Re: ‘Tipping point’ makes partisan polarization irreversible in research model

#51

Post by newobj »

neurobot123 wrote: post #25
DFHippie wrote: post #20

Well, we're at a point where foreign attacks on our elections are a partisan issue, the response to a pandemic which has killed some 770k citizens is a partisan issue, whether or not we can use democratic elections to select our leaders is a partisan issue, to say nothing of catastrophic climate change. But then, for much of the first century of the existence of the US whether or not some humans could own others as s…

The polarization is mostly between those who trust mainstream media and those who don’t. Not sure what can be done with media pushing disinformation for political reasons, any regulation there would risk violating the 1st amendment.

I think you're projecting.

Re: ‘Tipping point’ makes partisan polarization irreversible in research model

#52

Post by nradov »

umvi wrote: post #46

It seems to me that the pandemic itself is not that big of a threat to society - after all, even if we did absolutely nothing and went about business as usual, some small X% of the population would die, hospitals might be forced to do bed rationing for a while (leading to more deaths), but the vast majority of citizens would get better in a few weeks due to their natural immune systems. 20-30 years in the future you…

We now suspect that's basically what happened during a previous coronavirus pandemic in 1889. Fortunately this time we have vaccines and other treatments to reduce the death rate.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7252012/

Re: ‘Tipping point’ makes partisan polarization irreversible in research model

#53

Post by sneak »

ianmcgowan wrote: post #31
sneak wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup, it's crazy. Now we're coming up on a million dead in the USA, many of them entirely preventable, and the culpability stands directly at the feet of the culture warriors on both sides of this partisan divide. (Does the previous sentence upset you and make you want to point fingers at your opposing partisan group? If so, you may be part of the problem I am describing.) Only fools try to win an argument with their…

"both sides" hardly seems fair in this context. If your spouse is drunk and about to get in a car and drive you absolutely need to win that argument.

I am talking about the partisan-aligned culture war currently waging in the USA.

It takes two to tango.

Re: ‘Tipping point’ makes partisan polarization irreversible in research model

#54

Post by sneak »

DFHippie wrote: post #24
sneak wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup, it's crazy. Now we're coming up on a million dead in the USA, many of them entirely preventable, and the culpability stands directly at the feet of the culture warriors on both sides of this partisan divide. (Does the previous sentence upset you and make you want to point fingers at your opposing partisan group? If so, you may be part of the problem I am describing.) Only fools try to win an argument with their…

> the culpability stands directly at the feet of the culture warriors on both sides of this partisan divide Both sides? Huh. > Does the previous sentence upset you and make you want to point fingers at your opposing partisan group? If so, you may be part of the problem I am describing. Interesting. Another way to think about it is that if you always punish everyone for anyone's malfeasance, there is no penalty for ma…

I think perhaps you’ve misunderstood me. I don’t think that we should “punish everyone”.

I’m saying that both parties that are waging war are equally responsible for the war being an ongoing conflict. It doesn’t matter who’s right and who’s wrong, it matters that both parties are conducting warfare.

Remember the whole “deplorables” thing? That set the stage for a team identification banner that you can wear (or not wear) on the front of your face. It’s not one specific act by one specific person, it’s the willingness of the group to vocally and vehemently disrespect the other group as a whole, to subscribe to the belief that all of the people in the other group are Fundamentally Bad. As we all know, both of the groups at issue are doing precisely this, and have been doing so since before covid. It’s such a habit, that you’re doing it right now.

In a word? Disunity. If you are promoting disunity, you’re the problem. (As an interesting aside, this is fundamentally the root problem I have with the existence of nations and borders in general - all so-called sovereign states promote human disunity, to some necessary-for-their-existence extent.)

TFA explains why an ideological/culture war, beyond a certain point, means that any significant crisis or upset will result in useless, senseless, unnecessary, and preventable destruction. It’s a result of the partisan brawlers being constantly ready and willing to brawl with the Other Team, and has nothing to do with the ideology or positions of either of the warring factions.

The only way out is to stop warring.

Re: ‘Tipping point’ makes partisan polarization irreversible in research model

#55

Post by starik36 »

9wzYQbTYsAIc wrote: post #21
blakesterz wrote: post #16

> “If we reach that point, we cannot unite even in the face of war, climate change, pandemics, or other challenges to the survival of our society.” We no longer have differences in opinion, we have differences of reality. Climate Change, pandemics, January 6th... the list goes on and on now.

I’d be surprised if we haven’t already passed such a tipping point. For me, the exclusion of Lawrence Lessig from political debates was a big indicator that things were already off the rails.

I think we've had many "tipping" that keep pushing the denominator further down.

The first time I saw that in my adult life was the memorial service for late Minnesota senator Paul Wellstone 20 years ago. The speakers turned it into a political rally. It was beyond distasteful. For some reason, it really stuck in my mind as the end of decency.

Re: ‘Tipping point’ makes partisan polarization irreversible in research model

#56

Post by mmmpop »

DFHippie wrote: post #42
mmmpop wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes the "correct" people are such insufferable, hypocritical assholes that the other side will slice its neck to spite the body, regardless of how incorrect they may be. If people can't see this game of chicken being a pretty sizable part of our issues then they should check their own biases.

I think you nailed it. The people patriotically spreading covid, attacking our system of government, preventing any action on climate change, and so forth don't actually think they're doing the right thing . They just feel so slighted and aggrieved, so disrespected, that they see harming their uppity neighbors as the greatest good. They are Ahab and the libs are their white whale. The thing is, people don't respect y…

Thanks for proving my point, I'd perhaps rather watch the world melt than have your sneering ass running the show.

I kid, but it's a close call.

Re: ‘Tipping point’ makes partisan polarization irreversible in research model

#57

Post by DFHippie »

sneak wrote: post #54
DFHippie wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the culpability stands directly at the feet of the culture warriors on both sides of this partisan divide Both sides? Huh. > Does the previous sentence upset you and make you want to point fingers at your opposing partisan group? If so, you may be part of the problem I am describing. Interesting. Another way to think about it is that if you always punish everyone for anyone's malfeasance, there is no penalty for ma…

I think perhaps you’ve misunderstood me. I don’t think that we should “punish everyone”. I’m saying that both parties that are waging war are equally responsible for the war being an ongoing conflict. It doesn’t matter who’s right and who’s wrong, it matters that both parties are conducting warfare . Remember the whole “deplorables” thing? That set the stage for a team identification banner that you can wear (or not…

[flagged]

Re: ‘Tipping point’ makes partisan polarization irreversible in research model

#58

Post by [deleted] »

mmmpop wrote: post #56
DFHippie wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you nailed it. The people patriotically spreading covid, attacking our system of government, preventing any action on climate change, and so forth don't actually think they're doing the right thing . They just feel so slighted and aggrieved, so disrespected, that they see harming their uppity neighbors as the greatest good. They are Ahab and the libs are their white whale. The thing is, people don't respect y…

Thanks for proving my point, I'd perhaps rather watch the world melt than have your sneering ass running the show. I kid, but it's a close call.

[deleted]

Re: ‘Tipping point’ makes partisan polarization irreversible in research model

#59

Post by dragonwriter »

DFHippie wrote: post #20

Well, we're at a point where foreign attacks on our elections are a partisan issue, the response to a pandemic which has killed some 770k citizens is a partisan issue, whether or not we can use democratic elections to select our leaders is a partisan issue, to say nothing of catastrophic climate change. But then, for much of the first century of the existence of the US whether or not some humans could own others as s…

Extreme partisan polarization in US politics is normal; people just forgot because of the long New Deal + Civil Rights realignments of 1932 to about 1994, which resulted in an unusually long period where the (still very strong) ideological polarization in our political system did not cleanly map to the divide between the two major parties. The era of “bipartisanship” wasn't free of ideological divides (civil rights, anti-war movement, etc.) its just that those divisive issues cut across the parties.

Re: ‘Tipping point’ makes partisan polarization irreversible in research model

#60

Post by motohagiography »

blakesterz wrote: post #16

> “If we reach that point, we cannot unite even in the face of war, climate change, pandemics, or other challenges to the survival of our society.” We no longer have differences in opinion, we have differences of reality. Climate Change, pandemics, January 6th... the list goes on and on now.

It may be worth noting that such was the polarization of Great Britain in WWII that Ireland remained officially neutral while London was being bombarded with rockets, and they went right back to bombing each other within a few years of the external threat being removed. This is the level of polarization and sectarianism I've been warning about for years, and we're way deeper into it than I think most people realize.

People only hate because it feels good to do it, righteous hate feels the best of all. There isn't a lot to compete with that feeling, except maybe actualizing one of the sadistic fantasies it creates. When your basic needs are taken care of and there's nothing else that is more intense in your life available to you, the little rush it gives you from hating those scumbags feels good and becomes a habit, and then it becomes as satisfying as having a cigarette or even a coffee in the morning, and so we seek out conflict. In nature fighting is expensive, so the conflict itself in many ways is also a luxury. The reason people are doing this is because they love it.They're going to do it until they realize they love it and then decide they don't anymore.

I've thought a lot about what beliefs people would need to change to mitigate the chain reaction we've set in motion, and there is no single one or cluster that makes much of a difference. We like this too much, and we're affluent enough to indulge it. While I have opinions on which ones would really help, barring a wave of Damascene conversions, I can't think of anything persuasive enough to change someones idea of self. It would require a viral idea that improved the quality of someone's thought in general, where through transmitting it you could raise enough boats to head off the imminent dark period.

Anyway, maybe we will just see what shakes out of a period of attrition.

Post reply on HN