Defund the Police meets the crime wave • Hacker News Board

Re: Defund the Police meets the crime wave

#211

Post by mostertoaster » Thu, Dec 09, 2021, 11:39 PM UTC

mint2 wrote: post #189

mostertoaster wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying cops don’t serve and protect? Do you know any who rushed into active mass shooting scenes, which is clearly a dangerous place to be? If you did, then you might think differently. Have cops used undue force? Yes. Are there some that are on a power trip and need to be fired? Yes. That doesn’t change what the police officers I know are like, nor the risks they are taking with every patrol. I think the mai…

Look at the LA times report on the the Torrence police department. A substantial number of officers were texting klan like message and bragging about racially profiling and lying about it. Note the articles refer back to earlier texting scandals in places like SF where recently cops were caught on camera just sitting around watching people rob a dispensary. It’s obvious some cops do not serve and protect, and there a…

> It’s obvious some cops do not serve and protect,

Completely agree

> and there are too few good cops holding their own accountable

Maybe true in SF and other progressive cities, but I’m doubtful this is the norm across all police departments.

The problem is people are treating all cops the same. In Oakland there might be a good precinct, and a bad one, if you treat the good like the bad, all you will be left with is the bad.

Still if it is bad enough might make sense to just turn it all over.

Re: Defund the Police meets the crime wave

#212

Post by jljljl » Thu, Dec 09, 2021, 11:39 PM UTC

harry8 wrote: post #121

tshaddox wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can understand some criticisms of the slogan, but why are you criticizing the slogan in this case when the police were literally not defunded?

Not op. When the call for reform is "defund" and that seems like the wrong thing to do, then people don't support sensible reform. One would imagine that many if not most police officers support some kinds of sensible reform but probably hesitate to support "defunding" their wages and have their and their colleagues jobs cut, which is what "defund" really sounds like. It's a total us and them mentality which is not t…

I think the frustration that led to "defund" is that a lot of sensible reforms have been resisted or watered down, and protections like qualified immunity have sheltered abusive cops from accountability.

For example: There was an article on Hacker News today about how an FBI program to track use-of-force incidents may shut down due to a lack of police involvement (https://www.washingtonpost.com/crime-law/2021/12/09/fbi-poli...).

I think there is likely a de-escalation path that involves sensible reform, but it will also require that reform to be embraced and implemented by the police

Re: Defund the Police meets the crime wave

#213

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Dec 09, 2021, 11:40 PM UTC

keewee7 wrote: post #158

throwawaygh wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But when the culture praises gangsters, being a "bad bitch" or whatever cancerous crap they brag about these days, then you get the issue of crime. Funny how upper-middle class kids listen to the same songs and end up working at FAANGs, banks, law firms, hospitals, etc.

>Funny how upper-middle class kids listen to the same songs and end up working at FAANGs, banks, law firms, hospitals, etc. How many upper-middle class kids listen to Chicago SoundCloud rappers?

[deleted]

Re: Defund the Police meets the crime wave

#214

Post by warkdarrior » Thu, Dec 09, 2021, 11:40 PM UTC

ryguytilidie wrote: post #101

mostertoaster wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it is that the movement itself has caused crime to increase. My friend is a police officer and is moving out of my progressive state to a more conservative one. He told me this is happening in nearly every department. His reasoning was that they use to feel like they were on the side of the community, but in many places it is now the community is opposed to the police. Also they don’t risk certain things beca…

>His reasoning was that they use to feel like they were on the side of the community, but in many places it is now the community is opposed to the police. This is like your grandpa telling you kids have no respect nowadays when all he does is scream at any kid he sees and then demands respect. It works both ways. Police used to be part of the community. Then they put themselves in tanks and body armor and come into e…

Clearly the community reacted:

- Many in the community marched to "Defund the Police".

- Others in the community started committing more crimes.

Unfortunately those two groups are part of the same community, so they'll have to learn to get along.

Re: Defund the Police meets the crime wave

#215

Post by whimsicalism » Thu, Dec 09, 2021, 11:40 PM UTC

rafale wrote: post #161

throwawaygh wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But when the culture praises gangsters, being a "bad bitch" or whatever cancerous crap they brag about these days, then you get the issue of crime. Funny how upper-middle class kids listen to the same songs and end up working at FAANGs, banks, law firms, hospitals, etc.

That material gets absorbed differently by the different social spheres. Those FAANG kids might listen to it, enjoy it, maybe as a way to rebel, escape or act cool, but it's not part of their culture. They will grow up to be like their FAANG parents and, in turn, also look down on it. It's not like I never enjoyed 50 cents. The problem is when it's part of the culture to the point where it's internalized.

having grown up alongside lots of people in these communities, this is nonsense. violence in the black community is much more around the economics of the drug trade, poverty, and poor quality/adversarial/under-policing.

the drug trade is similarly violent in Mexico, where rap music is not as popular and there are fewer black people.

> It's not like I never enjoyed 50 cents.

Sure, "50 cents"

Re: Defund the Police meets the crime wave

#216

Post by atweiden » Thu, Dec 09, 2021, 11:41 PM UTC

throwawaygh wrote: post #54

fatcat500 wrote: post #33

The people who support defunding the police have never felt genuine fear from being victimized by crime. It's only after the crime, when you're thinking about how someone else had the hubris to threaten your life, thinking about how you could have died, or worse, if your loved ones had been with you, that they could have died, that you begin to wade yourself into a deep and abiding anger. I used to feel sympathy for…

I've been a victim of both violent crime and property theft. Police did nothing. It was pulling teeth just to get them to write up reports so that I could file insurance claims. Police don't prevent crime. Hell, they barely even respond to crime. And cops in our city have criminally generous pensions -- when you count the pension, lots of these high school grads making 100K+/yr. To say nothing of the absurd capital e…

> Police don't prevent crime. Hell, they barely even respond to crime.

Awarding a well-marked group with some measure of public accountability the right to use violent countermeasures for the protection of life and property in a geographic area facilitates commercial trade and societal advancement.

However, the “garbage-in, garbage-out” phenomenon applies to policing, which makes it less of a silver bullet. A certain amount of criticism lobbed at police forces in America can be reduced to hysteria over police being unable to turn lead into gold.

Re: Defund the Police meets the crime wave

#217

Post by keewee7 » Thu, Dec 09, 2021, 11:41 PM UTC

In 2017 Copenhagen had a wave of gang shootings with 1-2 daily fatalities during the worst weeks. That is nothing compared to the most violent US cities but it was completely unprecedented for a Danish city.

The gang warfare was stopped by massive police operations and surveillance. This included military surveillance and signal intelligence planes [1] and helicopters to aid the police.

It worked. I know it goes against techno libertarian ideals on HN to suggest that police and surveillance can actually stop crime but it did in 2017 in Copenhagen.

[1]: https://www.berlingske.dk/samfund/politiet-tager-nye-vaaben-...

Re: Defund the Police meets the crime wave

#218

Post by crooked-v » Thu, Dec 09, 2021, 11:41 PM UTC

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #88

The problem with "defund the police" is that we never really defined what it was. Are we talking about the libertarian thing were you literally don't have the police anymore, and then you have a posse of ordinary citizens come together to execute arrest warrants and a high rate of private firearms ownership to deter crime? That would have been a weird thing to hear from progressives, I would think. And did anybody ac…

The gist of the slogan, as originally intended, is to take some (not all) money and responsibilities away from the police and give them to unarmed or lesser-armed civil enforcement agencies when appropriate (for example: parking enforcement, mental health interventions with unarmed people), and to take away funding the exceeds that scope of reasonable armed police activity (e.g. no MRAPs, no elaborate SWAT teams in small towns).

In other words, the intent is to fundamentally remove the institutional potential for cases like "I called in a noise complaint and then an officer showed up, shot my neighbor's dog, and kicked my child" by making it so that police are no longer the unfettered monolithic response for every possible civil disturbance.

Re: Defund the Police meets the crime wave

#219

Post by monodeldiablo » Thu, Dec 09, 2021, 11:42 PM UTC

atweiden wrote: post #156

terminatornet wrote: post #67

> I have seen the unraveling over the past year in my own neighborhood. In October, about three blocks from my house, a neighbor was shot and killed in a home invasion. About a mile south in the same month, a 15-year-old girl was shot to death in an act of road rage. And just a few weeks ago, a little more than a half-mile west of me, another teenager was fatally shot. What exactly would police have done in any of th…

Just days ago, Jacqueline Avant, the 81 year old wife of music industry legend Clarence Avant, was murdered in the wee hours of the morning in her Beverly Hills home during a home invasion [1]. Police were able to catch the murderer when he (literally) shot himself in the foot shortly thereafter… during a second home invasion in the Hollywood Hills [2]. > What exactly would police have done in any of these situations…

Scotland and Portugal have had success in reducing crime rates by treating crime as a public health issue and focusing their efforts on prevention. If you're genuinely interested in how to build a less violent society, I'd suggest starting your research there.

I am unaware of any evidence that early, swift violence is an effective long- or short-term deterrent for crime.

Re: Defund the Police meets the crime wave

#220

Post by chongli » Thu, Dec 09, 2021, 11:42 PM UTC

mitigating wrote: post #37

eckmLJE wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actual instances of police funding being reduced are so rare that the author reaches for incidents of low police-citizen interaction following controversial police-on-citizen violence as evidence of what a straw-man version of "defund the police" advocates for. "Defund the police" has to be the most poorly conceived political slogan of all time. It sounds more like a pejorative its opponents came up with.

wouldn't that mean the cause of the increased crime is either criminals who are angry at the police so they commit more crimes or the police not working as hard (or a combination)

Wait what? Why would criminals be angry at the police for not interacting with them as much? I think a more likely explanation for increased crime is increased opportunity due to reduced police presence.