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The biggest crypto lending company is a ponzi scheme

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341–350 of 429 posts

Re: The biggest crypto lending company is a ponzi scheme

#341

Lending cryptocurrency as a business model seems like absolute nonsense to be honest. My entire understanding is that the bitcoin model isn't compatible with investment capitalism, nor is it compatible with high-volume low-value transactions (i.e. buying food at grocery stores). It's only real purpose is as an independent store of value, for example you might convert $US 10K to Bitcoin and then just sit on it, not re…

Crypto loans are generally cheaper than traditional personal loans and credit cards and obviously require no credit checks. That to me is where it all stops. The volatility makes borrowing crazy scary to me. Getting margin-called when the market tanks and having a couple of days to prop up your original collateral is not for the faint of heart. With that said, this doesn't seem to deter some. I know some folks who borrowed against their crypto to fund certain investments with recurring revenue which end up paying for the loan.

Re: The biggest crypto lending company is a ponzi scheme

#342
post #21

Crypto and NFT is one big ponzi scheme. Who on earth is spending $000,000s on a virtual ship? I sense it is a case of somebody close to the NFT or virtual world buying the asset and making out it is a great thing and then selling it on quickly. Many a scam involves somebody from the group buying something so the unwilling feel like it safe. As always, don't be left holding the baby.

You obviously don't understand any of this. Is USD not a ponzi scheme? Is Quantitative Easing not a ponzi scheme? Is MMT not a ponzi scheme?

Ponzi's scheme was that early investors got paid with the buy-in from the later investors, out to infinity, and the early investors crowing about how much money they made generated the hype for the later investors to buy in, and overall no value was added to the world to support any of this, it was exclusively a money-funnel from lots of late people to a few early people. It makes no sense to talk about USD being a Ponzi scheme because you can't exchange your $100 USD for someone else's $2000 USD, and later they exchange it for $4000 USD from people excited to pay $4000 USD for $100 USD in the hope they can sell $100 USD for $8000 USD in future. It's clearly madness. Anyone would pay approximately $100 USD for your $100 USD, all other things being equal (no money laundering, no additional services wink wink, and not thinking about century timescales where historic value or inflation comes into it, etc).

While "wealth begets wealth" in many ways such as compound interest, simply holding $100 USD from years ago doesn't by itself give you any advantage over people in the present day. Holding BitCoin from 2012 does give you advantage over people in the present day, and that advantage comes not from any value BitCoin itself generates, but from the present day buyers seeing the increase in money the 2012 buyers got for no effort, and wanting part of it, so throwing more money at it than the 2012 buyers did. Quantitative Easing isn't a Ponzi scheme because you don't buy Quantitative Easing hoping you can sell your Quantititative Easing for more to new people interested in the hype of Quantitative Easing.

Exchanging USD for steel, fashioning it into a steel bolt, and exchanging the bolt for more USD, is not a Ponzi scheme. Buying shares in a company, the company making steel bolts and becoming more valueable, and your share of it becoming more valuable, is not a Ponzi scheme. Exchanging USD for one BitCoin, then exchanging one BitCoin for significantly more USD, where that extra USD comes from the other person, who doesn't value the BitCoin but only hopes the BitCoin will increase in value in future, makes it very much like a Ponzi scheme.

You can grow flowers in your garden, you can find someone to exchange their company shares for your flowers, that doesn't make flowers a currency. You can declare that USD is a currency with an army behind it, that doesn't make it a Ponzi scheme.

The open question is whether BitCoin can get enough buy-in from people wanting to cash out for free money to generate a secondary market of people exchanging BitCoin for goods and services, large enough that when no more people want to buy in for the free-money aspect, people still want to buy-in for the practical use cases. Since most of the practical and legal use cases are well served by USD, the faff of exchanging USD for BitCoin to buy bolts and lose consumer protections instead of exchanging the USD for bolts seems value removing, not value adding.

Re: The biggest crypto lending company is a ponzi scheme

#343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stablecoins will turn into CBDCs and CBDCs will serve that purpose. Bitcoin is down from 68K to 48K in the last what 3 weeks? Stores of value don't flail wildly and incoherently at the whims of a few whales, and given it supports 2-3 tx/sec using the energy of an entire country, it's a crap medium of exchange too. The future of crypto for anyone other than an anacap libertarian is CBDCs.

CBDCs have nothing to do with crypto. It's just PR by politicians.

Totally, but it solves the problem we're discussing. A stable store of value open to anyone. Blockchain is literally just a distributed database. An implementation detail.

Re: The biggest crypto lending company is a ponzi scheme

#344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> try sending large amounts of money around in the legacy system Well, cryptos aren't really money so actually sending money via crypto requires transferring crypto from a bank to an exchange, making a purchase, withdrawing it to a destination wallet at an exchange, selling it, and transferring the proceeds to another account. That takes days , requires multiple transactions and costs boatloads of fees. By constraini…

> “ By constraining it to transfer of an intermediate representation you're not making a good faith representation of the process.” Yeah, I’m betting on the future utility enabled by the tech, not what it can do right now. Similarly people said the web was useless in the 90s [0] when the future utility (imo) was obvious. > “Second, the only thing you can do better with crypto than a centralized exchange is crime, gri…

> Is this true? I thought there was a complex system of clearing houses, record updates, etc. a lot of which is done manually? Am I wrong?

Blockchain is a database. Records at a bank are a database. There's no reason you can't just execute a SQL transaction to deduct from one and increment the other haha. That's not the slow part.

That's why every one of the systems I mentioned supports real-time 24/7 transfers: SEPA, FPS, NPP, Interac, RTP, FedNow, ISO20022. Not a blockchain in sight. Amazing right?

> It’s possible to build a lot of stuff to handle things like KYC in a way that’s better because of crypto tech.

It does not address KYC at all. KYC is built on top at the CEX level. If you have some concrete non-speculative way you think this is true, please share.

> I guess we’ll see how it shakes out, but for better or worse I’m betting against you.

I seriously doubt you're betting against me haha.

[edit] Any the reason settlement hasnt been addressed sooner is because thanks to the magic optimization of centralization and trust, you can just borrow the capital until settlement happens. I mean think about it, equity settlement is T+2 but yet somehow HFTs exist?

Remember the golden rule of blockchain: except in the case of regulatory arbitrage, grift and crime, if you think a blockchain is a better solution to a problem than any classical solution - you either don't know enough about crypto or you don't know enough about the problem.

Re: The biggest crypto lending company is a ponzi scheme

#345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You also can't deny that there are ideas which threaten state control, monetary policy, nationalistic ideals, religion its self. Phew. Yeah, we all felt that. In 2010. Now while we're reminiscing the past, I know another one! Lets provocatively ask: Isn't the colossal energy wasting worth freedom and all? - So exciting, wasn't it? And don't get me started on Wikileaks donations! Reality has moved on, and nothing sc…

Is this sarcasm, or are you actually saying that freedom is not worth the spent energy? Bitcoin is now used by El Salvador to avoid borrowing money from IMF. Is that also a ponzi scheme?

No. Yes, "freedom" ain't worth it.

I don't know.

Re: The biggest crypto lending company is a ponzi scheme

#346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well a lot of it is coming from incentives of these protocols I keep seeing this for DeFi. - So you put 1 fiat into the magic box, and 2 fiat comes out. Where did the 1 fiat profit come from? - DeFi collateralized staking algorithms hash protocol incentives! - Yeah whatever but no really, it's a closed system so all inputs and outputs need to sum up, where did the new fiat come from? - YoU dOnT uNdErStAnD cRYpTo!!1…

I think you may have just also described fractional reserve banking? that is literally where much of the money supply comes from. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional-reserve_banking

Except that they aren't banks, and so there's no lender of last resort to backstop them. [1] There can't be any assurance that depositors would get all of their money back in the event of a bank run if the money isn't backed by actual dollars or a lender of last resort.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lender_of_last_resort

Re: The biggest crypto lending company is a ponzi scheme

#347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is no different from expensive picture collectors. That's a minority of participants.

Expensive picture collectors may also be irrational ...

The point is not that they are rational, but that you can't deem the whole crypto market irrational (what the parent does) just because it has NFTs, because then you'd have to deem the regular market irrational too because it has picture collectors.

Both markets have some degree of irrationality, and the parent did not show that cryptos have more of it to justify preference of the regular market over crypto.

Re: The biggest crypto lending company is a ponzi scheme

#348
post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Who on earth is spending $000,000s on a virtual ship? Money laundering?

https://mobile.twitter.com/Foone/status/1457749433844568066

Very similar to the retro video game scam recently covered by Karl Jobst. (In that case, in short, the auction house and the game grading company are owned by associated people, who have seemingly organized a few sham sales for advertisement and then profited off of speculation).

Re: The biggest crypto lending company is a ponzi scheme

#349
post #202

For those who believe "crypto is too big to fail", or the genie is out of the bottle, or that crypto concepts have become so engrained and popular that it's not possible to stop, I'd like to point out that Bernie Madoff's Ponzi scam lasted for 30+ years. People built entire lives on his very professional-seeming "business". Scams can go on for a very long time, and very large numbers of people can build their whole l…

Crypto is an open protocol for financial services/transactions running on decentralised hardware. Thats pretty cool and useful. Naturally the first thing that happened was that all the scammers and get rich idiots moved in like with any powerful new technology. It will surely take some time to get the real world usage up and the portion of moon boys/scammers down but it will happen nevertheless.

> Crypto is an open protocol for financial services/transactions running on decentralised hardware.

Except it's not. "Open" and "decentralized" are the false promises of crypto. The entire crypto market is dominated by centralized exchanges, criminal enterprises like Tether and Binance.

Re: The biggest crypto lending company is a ponzi scheme

#350
post #217
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I sometimes liken cryptocurrency coins and tokens to casino chips. They have no intrinsic value, but they do serve a purpose for some people, and drive a multi-billion industry. There are even some people who collect casino chips (exonumismatists). This analogy also suggests that they might not ever completely go away.

You could say (almost) the same thing about fiat money though...

Fiat can be used pretty widely, whereas casino tokens can only be used in casinos and cryptocurrency can only be used within the cryptocurrency ecosystem (noting that casinos and the cryptocurrency ecosystem both need fiat on and off ramps to function).
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