New Zealand plans to make it illegal for kids to buy cigarettes

Re: New Zealand plans to make it illegal for kids to buy cigarettes – for life

#81

Post by LanceH » Thu, Dec 09, 2021, 4:44 PM UTC

Angostura wrote: post #71

LanceH wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't support any legislation that so blatantly discriminates against a whole class of people. People should be treated equally in the eyes of the law.

It's certainly unfair that the older generation end up with worse health because they aren't protected by this law, it's true.

Whether the law is well intentioned or not, it discriminates against those born after a certain year.

If it is truly necessary to ban people born after 2007 from smoking for their entire lives, this law should not create two groups, it should ban all people smoking at any age.

Re: New Zealand plans to make it illegal for kids to buy cigarettes – for life

#82

Post by foxrider » Thu, Dec 09, 2021, 4:44 PM UTC

bigyikes wrote: post #26

The amount of support for drug prohibition in this thread really surprises me. Why shouldn’t an adult have the freedom to smoke and put themselves at high risk of lung cancer? If it’s “for their own good”, what makes the government the best entity to decide what’s good for one’s self? I hope lives are saved, but dang, it just hurts me a little bit to see personal liberty curbed. There’s no way this will result in an…

The problem here is how tobacco smokers are affecting people around them. Passive smoke consumption is very dangerous, and the smokers tend to ingore any regulations for smoking. Take public bus stops for example, if someone starts smoking while waiting for the bus you usually don't want to start a scene by asking them to stop, and you wouldn't call the police on them, because it's really stupid to bother the cops for such a tiny thing they wouldn't even catch in time. The workplace can be really affected too. Offices may be free of smoke now, but have you ever been a construciton worker? And hell, even living next to a smoker is really uncomfortable, if you live in an apartment building it's always a nuisance when they smoke and it gets sucked into your place if you have a window open. I just really don't want smokers anywhere near me, but the reality is - they are all over the place, and when you try to limit the places they can partake in their habit or complain they always act like they're the victim and their rights are getting violated.

Re: New Zealand plans to make it illegal for kids to buy cigarettes – for life

#83

Post by FinanceAnon » Thu, Dec 09, 2021, 4:45 PM UTC

can16358p wrote: post #52

Preventing people from buying something that affects their own body should be illegal. It's their own body. (Anti smoker here)

What if my taxes are paying for their healthcare? (I don't support completely banning smoking, but just playing devil's advocate here)

Re: New Zealand plans to make it illegal for kids to buy cigarettes – for life

#84

Post by bartread » Thu, Dec 09, 2021, 4:46 PM UTC

gautamdivgi wrote: post #48

bigyikes wrote: post #26

The amount of support for drug prohibition in this thread really surprises me. Why shouldn’t an adult have the freedom to smoke and put themselves at high risk of lung cancer? If it’s “for their own good”, what makes the government the best entity to decide what’s good for one’s self? I hope lives are saved, but dang, it just hurts me a little bit to see personal liberty curbed. There’s no way this will result in an…

Maybe NZ has socialized healthcare? In which case you need to relinquish "personal liberties" to access medical resources. In general, I don't support these kinds of things. I just think vices are something humans have pursued in general and will continue to pursue regardless of government control. It's just cost of being in a society. Education can help and has helped greatly reduce smoking along with policies restr…

> Maybe NZ has socialized healthcare? In which case you need to relinquish "personal liberties" to access medical resources.

That argument does not hold water.

Socialised healthcare, as we have in the UK (I'm not sure about NZ), doesn't mean you don't pay for it. We all pay for it in income tax and national insurance through every single pay packet. We also pay for it through other taxes such as VAT and fuel duty.

This means that if, for example, you partake in a risky activity such as driving, and get into an accident, regardless of whether it was your fault or not, if you're still alive but in need of medical attention, the NHS will treat you. If you go out running, trip, fall and break your ankle, the NHS will treat you - even though you could have avoided that injury by staying at home. If you're cycling and you fall off your bike on a patch of ice, the NHS will treat you, even though cycling when it's icy isn't a particularly good idea.

I need to sister some joists in my loft to reinforce them prior to boarding out for storage. If, through my own stupidity, I manage to fire a nail through my hand with my own nailgun (it happens), the NHS will treat me even though such an injury would 100% be my own fault.

Nobody needs to relinquish "personal liberties" just because healthcare is socialised. When we're treated by the NHS, we're getting what we've paid for and therefore (rightly) feel entitled to expect. I am hugely grateful for the NHS, but it is not free, and it shouldn't be making moral judgements about who to treat and who not to treat.

Do I like smoking? No, not at all - it's a disgusting habit that makes you and everything you own stink, and terrible for your health, not to mention a woefully pitiful way to get any kind of buzz or high. The buzz from tobacco is parsimoniously anticlimactic, and it's unbelievably expensive for the minimal payoff in that department. I mean, seriously, at least have some ambition in your vices.

At the same time, do I want to see it banned? Also no, and for all the reasons otherwise discussed in this thread: I don't want to foster an environment in which organised crime can further thrive, and I don't want to criminalise (ultimately) millions of smokers.

This legislation is both a massive government overreach, and a terrible idea.

Re: New Zealand plans to make it illegal for kids to buy cigarettes – for life

#85

Post by aaomidi » Thu, Dec 09, 2021, 4:46 PM UTC

NoSorryCannot wrote: post #58

gautamdivgi wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe NZ has socialized healthcare? In which case you need to relinquish "personal liberties" to access medical resources. In general, I don't support these kinds of things. I just think vices are something humans have pursued in general and will continue to pursue regardless of government control. It's just cost of being in a society. Education can help and has helped greatly reduce smoking along with policies restr…

There's certainly an argument for it but I disagree that loss of liberties is prerequisite to socialized healthcare.

This 100%. There's plenty of activities that put you at risk but people seemingly only care about like 5 things. Including smoking.

Mutual Healthcare does put more pressure to actually deal with macro damage creators. Like chemical companies dumping their shit in streams.

Re: New Zealand plans to make it illegal for kids to buy cigarettes – for life

#86

Post by t_sawyer » Thu, Dec 09, 2021, 4:48 PM UTC

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #73

bigyikes wrote: post #26

The amount of support for drug prohibition in this thread really surprises me. Why shouldn’t an adult have the freedom to smoke and put themselves at high risk of lung cancer? If it’s “for their own good”, what makes the government the best entity to decide what’s good for one’s self? I hope lives are saved, but dang, it just hurts me a little bit to see personal liberty curbed. There’s no way this will result in an…

Well, I'd be okay with people smoking cigarettes if non-smokers literally never had to breathe in their second-hand smoke. So, if someone without any children lived in a single-family home (as opposed to an apartment building or complex) and never left for long enough to need a smoke break while out in public—I'd say sure, go ahead and smoke, that's none of my business. How many people does that describe? How many pe…

There’s a ton of people who dip or use chewing tobacco… no second hand smoke there.

Re: New Zealand plans to make it illegal for kids to buy cigarettes – for life

#87

Post by LanceH » Thu, Dec 09, 2021, 4:49 PM UTC

r00fus wrote: post #45

LanceH wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't support any legislation that so blatantly discriminates against a whole class of people. People should be treated equally in the eyes of the law.

A drug preference ins't a "class of people". It's just a preference (or an addiction).

People born after a certain year is a class of people. Born on one side can smoke, born on the other side can never smoke.

But it's good for them! Sure. They also speak about smoking being a problem for the Maori. Maybe they should start by banning them from smoking.

They aren't banning a drug preference. They are banning it from a specific group of people.

This is fundamentally broken. There has to be a better way of accomplishing it than setting terrible precedent of yanking privileges for life from a group which can't even vote yet.

Re: New Zealand plans to make it illegal for kids to buy cigarettes – for life

#88

Post by yodsanklai » Thu, Dec 09, 2021, 4:49 PM UTC

bigyikes wrote: post #26

The amount of support for drug prohibition in this thread really surprises me. Why shouldn’t an adult have the freedom to smoke and put themselves at high risk of lung cancer? If it’s “for their own good”, what makes the government the best entity to decide what’s good for one’s self? I hope lives are saved, but dang, it just hurts me a little bit to see personal liberty curbed. There’s no way this will result in an…

> The amount of support for drug prohibition in this thread really surprises me. Why shouldn’t an adult have the freedom to smoke and put themselves at high risk of lung cancer?

I'm not for drug prohibition either but there should be very specific legislation around use of tobacco for minors.

No informed adult in their right mind would start smoking tobacco. It's incredibly deadly and addictive, and not even enjoyable before you're an addict. The problem is that people start smoking when they are kids or teenagers and are unable to stop when they become conscious of the problem.

In my country, selling tobacco to minors would lead to an insignificant fine. This is insane. I can't make any sense of it.

Re: New Zealand plans to make it illegal for kids to buy cigarettes – for life

#89

Post by remus » Thu, Dec 09, 2021, 4:52 PM UTC

bigyikes wrote: post #26

The amount of support for drug prohibition in this thread really surprises me. Why shouldn’t an adult have the freedom to smoke and put themselves at high risk of lung cancer? If it’s “for their own good”, what makes the government the best entity to decide what’s good for one’s self? I hope lives are saved, but dang, it just hurts me a little bit to see personal liberty curbed. There’s no way this will result in an…

I think it's important to remember that tobacco is highly addictive. This makes it harder for individuals to make an informed decision which I think should be a factor in deciding whether to control a particular substance.

Re: New Zealand plans to make it illegal for kids to buy cigarettes – for life

#90

Post by chomp » Thu, Dec 09, 2021, 4:53 PM UTC

bigyikes wrote: post #26

The amount of support for drug prohibition in this thread really surprises me. Why shouldn’t an adult have the freedom to smoke and put themselves at high risk of lung cancer? If it’s “for their own good”, what makes the government the best entity to decide what’s good for one’s self? I hope lives are saved, but dang, it just hurts me a little bit to see personal liberty curbed. There’s no way this will result in an…

I was going to write up a devil's advocate post, but I think I'm mostly fine with people having the freedom to keep smoking as long as externalities are priced in. If smokers cost the country ~NZ$2.5 billion for their personal freedom, then the revenue produced by the tax should be ~NZ$2.5 billion. I think it boils down to if a regressive tax like that is palatable or not.

However, as the smoking population dwindles (due to costs, but also increasing public awareness) and you get less people paying in, but more people pulling out of the pot, you're going to have to bump the tax that much more, causing tobacco related crime. At some point, you have to pull the plug if the smoking cohort can't pay for themselves without causing widespread crime. I don't think it should be illegal to smoke or grow your own, but a ban on selling substances does make some amount of sense.