IMHO discussion about Georgism (as extreme position) is detrimental to reasonable discussion about property tax vs land value tax with more realistic parameters (say 3 % of value).
Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal?
301–310 of 375 posts
Re: Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal?
#302Earlier quoted context omitted.
Would it really be disastrous? Say a house rents for $2,000 / month. $1,000 of that is the land, and $1,000 the house. The land value tax is $1,000. We'll pretend this is an ideal world. If the interest rate is 12% then house+land is worth 100,000. But imagine the they misappraise the land. So instead they charge 1,500 a month. Then that means the house+land is worth $50,000. That's not ideal but it doesn't seem cata…
>That's not ideal but it doesn't seem catastrophic. >If a piece of land is underdeveloped and they charge a little too much, the person just surrenders that land to the government which auctions it off. I would say a situation where I surrender my land to the government is catastrophic. Feels like it would easily turn into forced sales.
You're surrending land because land isn't worth anything and you don't want it anymore.
The whole point of Georgism is to make land really cheap, by making it expensive to own.
Re: Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal?
#303Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I believe that there needs to be some "punishment" taxes, to regulate things that might otherwise go out of hand (which is important in order for capitalism to function well). First of all I don't think that actually is true. Second, even assuming this is true. Using the tax system is about the worst possible way of achieving these things. Making the tax system complex to micromanage all possible situations on a fe…
> Well its % based so its already progressive as in you pay far more if you are richer. So if you want to also pay higher % if you are richer. This is just flat out wrong. With a flat tax you don't pay a higher % if you are richer, you pay a higher amount . It stings just as much to lose 10% if you make 1k/month as when you make 100k/month. Whereas with the latter you're left with 90k, arguably much more than needed…
> With a flat tax you don't pay a higher % if you are richer, you pay a higher amount.
That's literally what I wrote.
The Flat tax is not fixed. Its incremental up to a a limit. So you only pay the full amount once you reach a certain level. Below that you pay increasingly less.
And as I suggested, if you want higher % you can make that slightly slanted as well.
Re: Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal?
#304Earlier quoted context omitted.
So why not tax gold or bitcoin or the Mona Lisa if the main difference between taxable assets and non-taxable assets is scarcity?
The post didn't use the word scarcity. Land isn't even scarce, most land is effectively uninhabited compared to the population densities most people live at. Humanity at large is not short of land. Land is quite unique. It is the resource with the weakest argument that humans produce it. Gold, for example, requires human labour to be dug up. Bitcoin requires humans to run machines. The Mona Lisa requires humans to pa…
I agree 100%. Originally land taxes were conceived as a correction for a more subtle bit of economic inequality: productivity of fields.
In today's world, where access to a city can dramatically change one's earning potential far far more, they are even more relevant.
The issue is both about the scarcity of access to a resource, such as the economy of a city, but also about where that resource comes from. With urban land, that resource is not the product of the individual land owner, but rather all the other land owners that made the city so prosperous and with so much opportunity.
Re: Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal?
#305Earlier quoted context omitted.
» Most Georgists support extending the land value tax to other kinds of economic land e.g. slices of radio spectrum. This makes me wonder, do roads pay land tax? I think railway tracks do but I'm not sure about roads. Personally I think more of the spectrum should be like 2.4GHz, 5 GHz (and soon 6GHz?). No auctions. No owners.
If we are going full Georgist, yes, even the government would pay taxes on its own land, which includes the land for roads and railways.
But it's important to note that this is a different question than if the roads have tolls on them. (Not that you implied that in any way, but it is a confusion that happens!)
Rather, the tax on the land of the roads is an accounting mechanism to ensure that the land is being used for greater economic efficiency, rather than, say, a way forward wealthy people who live far away to get the public to subsidize the transport to their large mansions.
Re: Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal?
#306Earlier quoted context omitted.
>Once you realise the latter are a myth, then the entire concept of taxing land makes no sense. Government, in a country with its own free floating currency, has no need of tax money to spend. Tax keeps a lid on inflation and can be used to discourage socially undesirable activity. It absolutely makes sense to keep inflation down and prevent productive land from being hoarded or used inefficiently with a tax at the s…
Inflation is handled by superior spend side auto-stabilisers, like a Job Guarantee, and socially undesirable activities are done with levies and duties, not tax. The latter being a political position, not an economic one. If you have sufficient saving in society , then you hardly need to tax at all - as Japan demonstrates.
>If you have sufficient saving in society , then you hardly need to tax at all - as Japan demonstrates.
... do you think Japan has particularly low taxes or something? Because they don't, according to this:
https://www.jetro.go.jp/en/invest/setting_up/section3/page7....
Re: Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal?
#307Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is a great question. Land taxes are great because there is less of a deadweight loss. Governments need money to operate. All else equal, we should get governments the money they need without wasting people's time to comply with complicated tax laws. Humans also generally agree that progressive taxation is a good idea. Rich people should pay more to fund the government. Rich people own a lot of land, so they'd pa…
Wouldn't a land value taxes be regressive for condos as the more expensive ones are on higher floors and would pay the same rate as people on lower cheaper floors?
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Re: Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal?
#308Value is subjective, and most people are idiots.
An asset in one person's hands will be destroyed by incompetence in another person's hands.
Nobody will ever admit they can't do something, but my experience tells me something different.
If you disagree, try this... Next time you need something painted, ask random people if they know how to paint. Offer the job to the first person that says "Yes, I can paint."
My guess is that you will be very disappointed with the result... Same thing goes for plumbing. If anyone is interested, I've got some video of a plumbing job I had it go back and fix. I had to pull the whole thing out... Honestly I just pulled on it a little and it just fell apart.
Do you think that guy would ever say he didn't know what he was doing? No, but people are idiots and stupid...
I used to have a different outlook about the noble nature of humanity, but then I moved to Pine Bluff Arkansas. It's filled with hopeless people stuck in a cycle of crime, drugs, and ignorance. The people there don't know anything different, so they think they are doing a good job.
I'm filled with so many conflicting ideas. How can we help the best of us soar without the dregs of society grabbing their ankles and pulling them down to drown in the cesspool that we keep digging deeper?
Where is the escape hatch? I just realized I'm asking "Who is John Galt?"
Re: Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal?
#309Earlier quoted context omitted.
Density increases the costs of public schools and trash disposal as well due to transportation. The rural lifestyle is heavily subsidized by productive urban Americans -- telecom, housing, hospitals, roads, electric networks, and on and on. https://www.downsizinggovernment.org/agriculture/rural-subsi...
I said "trash disposal" for a reason. Rather than handwave that things cost "more" with area, the sane way to analyze it is in terms of their growth. Rather than talking in terms of lot area, it's clearer to discuss in terms of single dimension distance between houses (lot area ~= L^2), holding population constant. Schools/hospitals/trash disposal/wastewater treatment - heavily proportional to population, with a negl…
Your argument about costs ignores the key fact that rural areas are far less productive than urban areas, and so cannot afford even the same per-capita rates as urban areas.
As for the land value economics of multi-family development in rural areas: it just isn't that important IMO.
However your described scenario seems like a great way for the rural area to become economically relevant by gradually building up a functional amount of density.
Re: Does Georgism work? Is land a big deal?
#310Earlier quoted context omitted.
Doesn’t that enable hostile takeover of land? If I own a school or restaurant, and Apple wants to replace it with a store, they can place a bid such that I can no longer afford the taxes and am forced to sell to them. Wouldn’t such a system just exacerbate business and the wealthy being able to snatch up land?
> they can place a bid such that I can no longer afford the taxes and am forced to sell to them. Sell for multiples of the assessed value? What hardship! Businesses can already purchase land for multiples of market value if they wish: very few people would refuse the offer. For the few that would, money clearly isn't a huge problem.
>For the few that would, money clearly isn't a huge problem.
That's not really true? A lot of people will refuse to sell their house even for a multiple of the 'market value', because that's the place they lived and want to continue living.