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Ask HN: Am I the only “unlucky” software engineer?

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Re: Ask HN: Am I the only “unlucky” software engineer?

#41

Post by me_me_me »

A friend gave me advice, when looking for job ask for a lot more than you'd want to earn. Often refuse to waste time on stupid tests, act a bit like a diva. And apply for a lot of positions. Its a balancing act, as you don't want to over-do it - asking for 400k will get your CV a ticket to a shredder.

Acting like a 'yes man' will subconsciously put you in a certain bin in recruiters' head. Acting a bit fussy means you value yourself, you are confident so you know what you are doing. That naturally puts you above everyone else who follows the script and tries to please the recruiting side.

When interviewing you want to be relaxed, ask them questions. Make it a bit about them trying to sell you the position. Again its a subtle power dynamic.

Other one is not to give CVs to every single recruiting agency, as it often will result in burned CV. If two agencies forward your CV for same position, the company will often drop you automatically as they dont want to deal with litigation between agencies fighting over who got you the job.

Good luck

Re: Ask HN: Am I the only “unlucky” software engineer?

#42

Post by spion »

> Sometimes you get the job and when you start rolling questions and ideas, you get a "talk to the hand" followed by "that's now what you're here for". Why hire a senior person as a poster, if you're not willing to be challenged and listen to different ideas? Nobody is asking you to agree, just play ball with convincing arguments. Too much of an ask, I guess.

Convincing arguments can be hard. I know I've been asked about convincing arguments in the past and I've tried my best, but sometimes its really difficult to recall the exact details around why a particular approach didn't work. I'm working on this by using Obsidian (or better, the company's Wiki) as a knowledge graph that I can refer to in the future, but in most situations you are not able to reuse the knowledge graph from a previous job fully. Architectural decision records / design docs work well for this - perhaps ask if they have those?

I agree though, convincing argumentation is not really common in software engineering for some reason. The way we approach best practices is the most revealing IMO: instead of explaining the reasons for the practices in detail, most of the time we just list and cargo-cult them.

Re: Ask HN: Am I the only “unlucky” software engineer?

#43

Post by JensRantil »

robin_reala wrote: post #23
beingflo wrote: post #4

I can't comment on the rest of the post but this bit stood out to me: > Sometimes they talk so much about fit fit fit, but they don't even bother with a personality or IQ test (which as a former hiring manager, I find very valuable because it allows you to balance the team, not because you see how high/low people score). Just for reference, if an employer ever asks me to perform an IQ test I'm definitely walking away…

They’re the norm in Scandinavia, unfortunately.

Hm, out of six interviews I've had in Sweden only a single one did that kind of test. Norm might be an overstatement.

Re: Ask HN: Am I the only “unlucky” software engineer?

#45

Post by plutonorm »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #27

As a hiring manager, the common theme I see in your post is a condescension toward everyone you interview with. You project an unwavering belief that you know how to run other people’s companies and hiring processes better than they do. If this is projected at all during your interview, the companies aren’t going to be eager to hire you. (And to be honest, they’d be right) For example: > Sometimes you get the job and…

I agree there appears to be a mismatch here. But I disagree that it can be changed by a new perspective.

If we take it at face value that he is experienced then we can say he is running up against culture fit problems.

And honestly I can relate to him because I have found most companies to be overly structured and resistant to change. In my opinion it comes down to personality types. The OP is not the standard developer architype and has trouble operating in an environment others find comfortable.

Rather than dismissing this as a problem with the candidate we should consider that it can be a problem with the environment.

My contention: Large organisations are a horrible environment for individuals high in creativity (big 5 personality trait). They very strongly tend to be populated by people who are low in creativity.

Experienced people who are high in creativity need to find leadership positions in companies breaking new ground - startups. They either need to find a position where they call the shots in a startup, or they need to create a startup themselves.

A person very high in creativity is designed to be working at the edge and if they find themselves working in the middle, doing maintenance, then they are going to be unhappy and misunderstood by others who are fundamentally different from them.

My advice to the OP is to get out of large companies and to go as small as possible, go take some risks on some new technology and architectures.

Re: Ask HN: Am I the only “unlucky” software engineer?

#46

Post by naavis »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #27

As a hiring manager, the common theme I see in your post is a condescension toward everyone you interview with. You project an unwavering belief that you know how to run other people’s companies and hiring processes better than they do. If this is projected at all during your interview, the companies aren’t going to be eager to hire you. (And to be honest, they’d be right) For example: > Sometimes you get the job and…

> There’s nothing wrong with asking for clarification about reasoning, but when someone is constantly challenging every decision made by management then it becomes an impediment to getting things done. If you want to be the person calling the shots, you should probably be applying for management positions. If you want to take an IC engineer position but constantly argue with the work, the company will eventually need to isolate you with a patient manager or remove you from the team in order to keep everyone aligned.

> More broadly: If you expect every manager to reflect exactly how you would choose to run things, you may be trying to act as a “backseat driver” manager without taking the responsibility of actual being a manager.

These hit close to home. Need to do some introspection, since I think I kind of behave this way. Thanks for writing this!

Re: Ask HN: Am I the only “unlucky” software engineer?

#48

Post by smugglerFlynn »

delusional wrote: post #15
sascha_sl wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or a personality test, which will likely be based on the MBTI - complete BS. Just because there's an entire consulting industry behind convincing you that to build the perfect team you must have "complementary personality types", does not mean it's true. Not like the IT industry has the luxury of choice based on such a lot of the time either.

I can kinda respect a personality test. It doesn't really mean anything, but they do stress that there's no "good" personality. IQ tests are different, because a higher number means better. That leads to superiority complexes.

MBTI (or other non-scientific test) stressing that there’s no “good” personality behave just like tobacco companies prior to regulations, trying to whitewash downsides of the product.

People rely on these things to make hiring decisions. I personally know people who hire based on reported personality that closely matches their own. I’ve seen people making biased opinions after being coached on these tests.

“No scientific backing, Makes people rely on confirmation bias” should be plastered all over these things, just the way we label cigarettes with photos of smoking consequences.

Re: Ask HN: Am I the only “unlucky” software engineer?

#49

Post by ajuc »

delusional wrote: post #15
sascha_sl wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or a personality test, which will likely be based on the MBTI - complete BS. Just because there's an entire consulting industry behind convincing you that to build the perfect team you must have "complementary personality types", does not mean it's true. Not like the IT industry has the luxury of choice based on such a lot of the time either.

I can kinda respect a personality test. It doesn't really mean anything, but they do stress that there's no "good" personality. IQ tests are different, because a higher number means better. That leads to superiority complexes.

There's a difference between personality test taken because you're curious, and one taken as a filter on the way to get a job. Usually you can guess where the authors of the test are going with the questions and which answers are "a better fit". And then it becomes a test of "how much you want this job" vs "how strongly you feel about being honest".

Also even if people answer honestly the science behind it is very shaky and when applied to real world situations it seems about as useful as astrology.

Re: Ask HN: Am I the only “unlucky” software engineer?

#50

Post by samhw »

me_me_me wrote: post #32
robin_reala wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They’re the norm in Scandinavia, unfortunately.

thats mad, you'd get better idea how 'smart' someone is by having 20min conversation. I guess thats one of those local idiosyncrasies

Hmm, I don't think that's true. I score incredibly highly on the 'verbal IQ' segment of the test, and anecdotally I seem to give people the impression of intelligence, but in the mathematical segment of the test I score about as highly as a potted plant.

Unless you've ever independently (non-circularly) corroborated your 'idea of how smart someone is', my guess is that it just serves as a proxy for qualities like academic education (which != intelligence), social class, similarity to yourself, &c.

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