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Groups never admit failure

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Re: Groups never admit failure

#251

Post by pvg »

HanaShiratori wrote: post #248
pvg wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

we've done an okay job of correcting some historical mistakes I don't want to take anything from the generally commendable and impressive German efforts in that regard, as you say, over a period of several generations. At the same time, one has to acknowledge to get there, Germany was physically destroyed, its territory dismembered and occupied, it effectively ceased to exist as a sovereign state for a period, etc, e…

Why would anyone, especially a large group spontaneously change one of their core beliefs? Don't you need some kind of trigger event to enforce the change of mind?

People have been wondering since that time a Wookiee lived on Endor.

Re: Groups never admit failure

#252

Post by HanaShiratori »

pvg wrote: post #251
HanaShiratori wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would anyone, especially a large group spontaneously change one of their core beliefs? Don't you need some kind of trigger event to enforce the change of mind?

People have been wondering since that time a Wookiee lived on Endor.

Sorry what? I guess I don't get what you're saying

Re: Groups never admit failure

#254

Post by hef19898 »

madaxe_again wrote: post #102
derbOac wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the essay is strongly written — never is a strong word — but it resonated with me because of a personal experience. In that experience part of the problem was that those who disagreed with the group were purged out of the group one way or another, either because they chose to exit out of disgust or because they were driven away, or something in between. So there was a "survivorship bias" in the group, where "…

Indeed - my personal experience of this was at my business - I would admit my and our mistakes to the extent that the perception became that I was the source of all of our failures. My partner was and is a person who is never wrong, never fails, never makes a mistake - it’s always someone else who stymied his ambitions, or circumstance, or just bad luck. Never an error. I left, after a decade. It was partly of my own…

That happens all the time. I think I am slowly getting the point of the story about Casandra. People that realize issues, voice them and raise them be properly addressed are almost never heard. Especially when these issues go against whatever group think narrative is in place. Those people also are the scapegoats when the bad things they predicted actually do happen. Because, hey, they knew it. So why didn't they do something about it?

I feel you, usually I am one of the people to raise those issues. Now I am trying a different approach, being very careful how I voice that stuff, and making sure I do it indirectly wherever possible in those rare occasions I do. The rest of the time, I just try to keep my mouth shut.

Kudos so for sticking around for 10 years.

Re: Groups never admit failure

#255

Post by hef19898 »

77pt77 wrote: post #171
madaxe_again wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed - my personal experience of this was at my business - I would admit my and our mistakes to the extent that the perception became that I was the source of all of our failures. My partner was and is a person who is never wrong, never fails, never makes a mistake - it’s always someone else who stymied his ambitions, or circumstance, or just bad luck. Never an error. I left, after a decade. It was partly of my own…

Reality is not a matter of perception, but humans' reaction to it is. Until reality is inescapable.

Reality is a bitch, and when it hits, it hits hard. Also, the later it hits, the harder it does so.

Re: Groups never admit failure

#256

Post by hef19898 »

cabalamat wrote: post #79
hcarvalhoalves wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After a large organization is structured, it's objective will shift to the survival of the organization itself when the original (legitimate) objective is made irrelevant by internal or external factors ("winning", or a change in the context that required the objective in the first place). I would expect an adage about this to already exist – if it doesn't, I'm claiming it. :)

> it's objective will shift to the survival of the organization itself when the original (legitimate) objective is made irrelevant by internal or external factors Yes, and also the furtherance of the careers of the top people.

And the less actual stuff said organization has to do, the worse it gets.

Re: Groups never admit failure

#257

Post by skinkestek »

selimthegrim wrote: post #206
renewiltord wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The WSJ had a piece many years ago about this happening to the Muslim Brotherhood as the moderate members, who were more visible and accessible, were arrested forcing the group to become more fundamentalist. Found that interesting. "The more you tighten your grip, the more star systems..." I never did validate if that claim about the Muslim Brotherhood stood the test of time but I found the thing interesting in the m…

the new vintage of Hamas, brought to you by Israeli intelligence

Hamas used to be worse - at least to Israelis. They are still as far as I know foul to their own people, but of that we don't know too much on the outside.

There is a reason these walls etc exist now and that is because when I was younger, reading about buses getting bombed or civilians machine gunned in Israel was totally unsurprising.

Re: Groups never admit failure

#258

Post by skinkestek »

wahern wrote: post #244
selimthegrim wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the new vintage of Hamas, brought to you by Israeli intelligence

Isn't Hamas an example of the opposite dynamic--of becoming less fanatical? Yes, Hamas leads violent, armed protests from the Gaza Strip. But there's arguably been less violence compared to the armed conflicts they induced on and across the Lebanese border. Once they began to independently govern (not withstanding lack of Israeli recognition) the Gaza Strip they had to soften their stance somewhat, similar to the PLO…

> not withstanding lack of Israeli recognition

Israel recognizes Gaza (as something else than Israel at least.)

It is mostly journalists (and internet forums) that conflates Gaza with an open air prison.

Re: Groups never admit failure

#259

Post by Borrible »

Delay, Deny, Defend. In doubt and you can't help, confess to be a miserable wretch, but also a victim of circumstance and heartbreakingly beg for forgiveness.

Not to forget, tell them you have understood your mistakes and will do everything possible to avoid them in the future.

That 'possible' is important next time, you fool them. Just in case they remember last time.

Sometimes it even pays to keep its promises.

http://cssc.uscannenberg.org/cases/v1/v1art6/

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