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Why U.S. Infrastructure Costs So Much

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211–220 of 272 posts

Re: Why U.S. Infrastructure Costs So Much

#211
post #148

Here's my favourite example of this. NYC recently opened the first stage of the Second Avenue Subway. This is a project that was initially started ~90 years ago and has been started and stopped multiple times in the intervening years. I believe the final version used none of the original tunnels however. It cost ~$6B for 1.5 miles of track [1]. The budget was padded at probably every level (eg [2]). There are a bunch…

Also see the Grand Paris Express railway lines, 200km of new track mostly undergound... and still way below US costs.

Re: Why U.S. Infrastructure Costs So Much

#212
post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, and I know China + civil rights etc. I wonder what specific civil rights abuses occurred in building their HSR? Was it similar to the US use of eminent domain to acquire land for building the interstate highways? Maybe we should bring that back. I'm seriously in awe of the Chinese government these days. In 30 years, they went from a raw labor and manufacturing country, to landing rovers on Mars. They built new…

I think the American individual pursuit of happiness is not compatible with Chinese good for society approach. Now it feels good to think that one can combine all the good stuff from different systems and make a best system but somehow it is not possible.

I fail to see how these are in contention.

Our (American) lack of HSR actually _decreases_ individual choice. Instead of having the extra option of convenient rail connections, we have to suffer through long drives or airport transits. Insofar as public infrastructure enables individual freedom, I believe China is currently out-America-ing America.

Re: Why U.S. Infrastructure Costs So Much

#213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience with construction projects, legal costs and liabilities take the cake. Once something is in court, there is zero telling how long and how much money it takes to resolve.

This is interesting from a foreign perspective. I still follow urban planning in Helsinki, Finland. Major public projects always face opposition and go to court, but it's not a big deal. Because zoning plans and similar project plans are decisions made by public officials, all complaints about them go to the administrative court system. Administrative courts don't care about the substance of the argument. (That's for…

Sounds like a despotate, residents are fucked if one of the officials make a wrong decision.

Re: Why U.S. Infrastructure Costs So Much

#214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> another contractor had to come and put the connector on the cable ... severely warned about the consequences This kind of job moating and threats is a union thing isn't it?

Yes, my partner was a conference planner and whenever they had one in NYC in the Time offices their team wasn't allowed to adjust tables by themselves, everything had to be done by formal work order tickets and only union hands could touch anything, even equipment they owned and brought in themselves. Coincidentally, this new infrastructure bill has union requirements for any EV work.

Isn't a trade off for some efficiency worth things like living wages, safety, and quality standards at scale?

Re: Why U.S. Infrastructure Costs So Much

#215
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of things appear unsustainable because the income of builders is inflated with fed money. I don't think much will improve until a normal person can afford to build a house again.

I could can buy a kit for a 3 bedroom house for say, $35K or less. But PG&E charges $20K+ to connect your electricity, the fire department charges $20k+ assessments and etc, bringing construction costs to $200K in a rural area and more in an urban area. A lot of this is prop 13 bs - cities can't tax so they finance themselves with new home assessments. But prop 13 itself is all about protecting those who built yester…

Ah, I agree, but a lot of that is specific to CA. There has to be a way to fix it. Over regulation is a thing; a relative that is a civil PE related a story about how someone from CA was trying to push for these ultra-specific signoff requirements on buildings and everyone laughed at him.

Re: Why U.S. Infrastructure Costs So Much

#216
post #148

Here's my favourite example of this. NYC recently opened the first stage of the Second Avenue Subway. This is a project that was initially started ~90 years ago and has been started and stopped multiple times in the intervening years. I believe the final version used none of the original tunnels however. It cost ~$6B for 1.5 miles of track [1]. The budget was padded at probably every level (eg [2]). There are a bunch…

Someone else's comment further down on this subject:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29491371

Re: Why U.S. Infrastructure Costs So Much

#217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, my partner was a conference planner and whenever they had one in NYC in the Time offices their team wasn't allowed to adjust tables by themselves, everything had to be done by formal work order tickets and only union hands could touch anything, even equipment they owned and brought in themselves. Coincidentally, this new infrastructure bill has union requirements for any EV work.

Isn't a trade off for some efficiency worth things like living wages, safety, and quality standards at scale?

Especially since no amount of technology has lessened the amount that most of us (especially those doing these jobs being complained about) still have to work to earn a living.

Re: Why U.S. Infrastructure Costs So Much

#218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, my partner was a conference planner and whenever they had one in NYC in the Time offices their team wasn't allowed to adjust tables by themselves, everything had to be done by formal work order tickets and only union hands could touch anything, even equipment they owned and brought in themselves. Coincidentally, this new infrastructure bill has union requirements for any EV work.

Unions get a bad rap. They don’t have to be bad. Everyone should have an incentive for efficiency.

Agreed. Unions do get bad and unfair rap. They serve a purpose as an advocate and provide bargaining power for employees in the free market.

I feel people forget that unions are organizations, and like all organizations (companies, non-profits, religious orgs, etc), they can be good or bad.

Re: Why U.S. Infrastructure Costs So Much

#219
post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen these cynical rants many times, but can you back any of the claims up with anything substantive? For example, that there is no difference between parties? It's important, because it disarms us; if we don't differentiate between the more and less corrupt, we can't improve the situation. There is greed and corruption in the world, but that's not all there is. There are plenty of people who want to do a good j…

I don’t think arguing both parties are corrupt disarms us. Instead, I see it as a rallying cry to either upend the system or to work outside of it. Some examples of political action (that work!) outside of the party system: - participating in a climate strike - unionizing your workplace - voting for local candidates that aren’t tied to the 2 party system - voting for candidates that the mainstream (ie: rich donors) o…

That certainly helps, but the two party system is the power structure, so that's how things get done. While I support change to that system, I am not waiting for it - we need to accomplish things now.

> everyone in power is beholden to capital

That is lazy analysis. I agree that far too many are beholden, but not everyone and not everyone to the same degree. It's like saying 'all software is too buggy' - that's too true, but that's not a reason to abandon all software until we engineer and develop something better.

We need to differentiate and become expert in their individual strengths and weaknesses, strategically make the best of it we can, all while we improve things. If that sounds like a lot, look at what our predecessors did! They gave us a very easy hand, relatively (and we've FUBARed it).

Re: Why U.S. Infrastructure Costs So Much

#220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> can you back any of the claims up with anything substantive? For example, that there is no difference between parties? Corruption doesn't have a party. What matters is the candidates. Rand Paul and Liz Cheney are in the same party, but they're not the same. Bernie Sanders and Adam Schiff are in the same party, but they're not the same.

> Corruption doesn't have a party. It's a broad statement, but with no evidence. If you mean 'no party is perfectly clean', that's not meaningful, like saying 'nobody is perfectly honest': some people are far more honest than others. If you don't hold the parties to account for their organized behavior, then they have no incentive to stop. Some parties tolerate or use corruption more than others, and by far the worst…

> Some parties tolerate or use corruption more than others

Evaluating this is inherently politicized. Is defense spending keeping the country safe from China and Russia and funding the creation of things like the internet, or is it a giveaway to defense contractors? Is government healthcare spending saving lives, or is it a giveaway to drug companies? The answer is complicated and subjective and people will believe what they want to believe.

But it's telling that both parties receive big money from big corporations who don't give altruistically. If one party is more corrupt than the other, it's not for lack of competition.

> If you mean 'no party is perfectly clean', that's not meaningful, like saying 'nobody is perfectly honest': some people are far more honest than others.

Some people are far more honest than others is the point. We have some idea who the dishonest people are. Let's get rid of them independent of which party they're in.

> If you don't hold the parties to account for their organized behavior, then they have no incentive to stop.

So go focus on defeating the specific Republicans who are the most corrupt instead of the ones who are the most vulnerable.

And you don't have to replace Adam Schiff with a Republican. Go replace him with a better Democrat. But spend your resources getting rid of people like him instead of trying to destroy some incumbent moderate in a swing state who was one of the few people doing the right thing in a party doing the wrong thing.

And hey, if you remove some corrupt and dishonest people from the party you like, maybe they'll win the majority more often.

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