Why U.S. Infrastructure Costs So Much • Hacker News Board

Re: Why U.S. Infrastructure Costs So Much

#121

Post by carabiner » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 10:41 PM UTC

danny_codes wrote: post #109

carabiner wrote: post #93

How was China able to blanket their entire country in high-speed rail in less time than it'll take to a build a single line in California? Is it just more manpower?

No, it's entirely politics and policy. California has an extremely cumbersome legal baggage that drags against public projects. Strong public unions, poorly implemented environmental protection laws, and a legal code that enables rampant NIMBYism are, IMO, the main limiting factors for Californian growth. We could today pass legislation that circumvented all of this nonsense, and we would see HSR rapidly built across…

Yeah, and I know China + civil rights etc. I wonder what specific civil rights abuses occurred in building their HSR? Was it similar to the US use of eminent domain to acquire land for building the interstate highways? Maybe we should bring that back.

I'm seriously in awe of the Chinese government these days. In 30 years, they went from a raw labor and manufacturing country, to landing rovers on Mars. They built new hospitals in days during the pandemic, and will soon be deploying brand new nuclear reactors. They'll probably have a dozen by the time we approve one. In the US, we're having national debates over whether horse dewormer cures COVID. We sound like a laughingstock of irrational, argumentative kids. I can't believe it.

I see China had a HSR crash that killed 40. That seems comparable in governmental fuckups to the FAA oversight with the 737 MAX (killed 346).

Re: Why U.S. Infrastructure Costs So Much

#122

Post by sjwalter » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 10:42 PM UTC

dsr_ wrote: post #52

vkou wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why aren't contracts to build the projects tightly written to avoid cost ballooning? Because no legitimate construction firm will take on a project where they are saddled with 100% liability for overruns. Not without very generously padding their estimated costs, that is. Which will make them lose the initial bid. A fly-by-night operator may want to take that project, and when things go sour, they'll leave you with…

One alternative would be to have a public works department which does the work itself. It would hire people, plan, write specs, buy or lease equipment, buy materials, do the work. That, however, would be socialism, so it can't be done, even though it's done on a smaller scale in every US city for issues starting at road repair and going on up.

One of the tricks Robert Moses had when he was basically building modern NYC was he had on staff a top-notch crew capable of the end-to-end implementation of whatever project proposal he came up with. Designers, engineers, project managers, accountants, even down to the guys digging the holes.

Not sure what happened and why cities stopped having all these capabilities on staff (seems obvious that e.g. NYC will eternally need a huge amount of people like this).

Re: Why U.S. Infrastructure Costs So Much

#123

Post by notreallyserio » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 10:45 PM UTC

AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #78

slymon99 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Moral qualities"? We aren't talking about Cuomo cheating on his wife, he used his position of authority to sexually harass eleven women.

Then fine the shit out of him, install a watch to make sure it doesn't happen again and let him keep doing things he's good at.

I don't like the idea of having to hire staff to monitor someone 24x7 to ensure he stays on task and doesn't drive away coworkers and employees with harassment just because "he's good at" part of his job. That doesn't make any sense.

Re: Why U.S. Infrastructure Costs So Much

#124

Post by Shadonototra » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 10:47 PM UTC

because we are animals stuck on a little dying planet and we believe money is what gonna save us

we'll transcend humankind the day we stop trying to profit from each other or worry about "how much it'll cost"

capitalism and its market don't want your street to look nice if it's not gonna make them generate profit, even if it makes you happy

the market doesn't want it!

Re: Why U.S. Infrastructure Costs So Much

#125

Post by AlexTWithBeard » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 10:47 PM UTC

HanShotFirst wrote: post #98

AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #53

My pet theory: because this is not a priority? The NY ex-governor Cuomo. He's not without dark spots, but a lot of infrastructure projects have been running during his time in the office: Moynihan hall train, LIRR double-track to Ronkonkoma and so on. Nevertheless, it was decided that moral qualities of the governor are more important than his ability to push projects to completion. So nope, Mr. Cuomo, you're not per…

Cuomo literally harrased his own highly competent NYC Transit director into resigning, for disagreements and stealing the spotlight. The LGA airtrain is an expensive boondoggle that is thankfully looking like it will be canceled. He was into large statement projects he could slap his name on regardless of actual need because he was clearly a huge narcissist.

Why LGA airtrain would be a boondoggle? AFAIR, right now there's no way of getting to LGA without risking being stuck in the traffic for an hour.

Re: Why U.S. Infrastructure Costs So Much

#126

Post by GhettoComputers » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 10:48 PM UTC

smnrchrds wrote: post #117

markus_zhang wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe unrelated but there was a report about the construction related corruption in Quebec. I read it back in the year 2015 and there was a lot of interesting information. For example, many construction projects are given to favored parties and government engineers who take care of those projects will make sure that outsiders do not get the tender offer. Occasionally someone from outside of the circle makes a compete…

There is a lot of mob involvement in Quebec's construction industry. Are you saying the reason infrastructure is expensive in the US is mobs?

Yes, here in my city, construction is a racket. they get unfair contracts, make them shitty, then when they break they get another one.

Re: Why U.S. Infrastructure Costs So Much

#127

Post by panick21_ » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 10:48 PM UTC

_xnmw wrote: post #4

Because the US has an unlimited supply of the world's reserve currency, so there is no incentive to be economical.

How even smart people have started to buy this 'Modern Monetary Theory' nonsense wholesale. The same old terrible idea resold in a new package for 1000s of years. Everytime a government runs out of money the charlatans come out and start claiming you can just magically print money without any issue.

Re: Why U.S. Infrastructure Costs So Much

#128

Post by GhettoComputers » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 10:49 PM UTC

throw0101a wrote: post #110

InTheArena wrote: post #35

This misses a fundamental point - the goal of this is not to fund infrastructure - it's to fund people who vote for people who vote for infrastructure. There is zero incentive to run on time and on-budget, and every incentive to milk more government cash, so that people in power can get election contributions, that stay in power. If you also deny money to people who didn't vote for you, then all the better as well. S…

> This misses a fundamental point - the goal of this is not to fund infrastructure - it's to fund people who vote for people who vote for infrastructure. You say this like wanting to repair/replace infrastructure is a bad thing. Are collapsing bridges a good thing? * https://fox23maine.com/news/i-team/ask-the-i-team-cars-still... * https://www.commercialappeal.com/story/news/2021/07/28/i-40-... * https://www.arkansas…

They usually take longer than 2-4 years

Re: Why U.S. Infrastructure Costs So Much

#129

Post by Traster » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 10:49 PM UTC

sofard wrote: post #10

I was a management consultant ages ago and worked on large capital projects. In my experience (as the article mentions) it was a mix of: 1. Red tape & public "input" 2. Layers of contractors and subcontractors, each taking their slice 3. No real incentives for governments to be cost sensitive. Usually capital projects last well into the next administration. 4. Too many cooks in the kitchen and consultations

Yeah my first reaction to this was "Oh it's going to be the public". Because the US has strong rights and legal system basically anyone can come along and considerably screw up a project just by claiming some endangered bat is living in the path of it, or some economic harm will be done, or some community will be damaged, it's far easier to just to just stick planning notice on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying 'Beware of the Leopard.'

A great example of this is in the UK where the main road going east to west from london to cornwall is a single carriage way with 2 lanes going past one of the country's most historic sites (stone henge). It's a fucking disaster. So the plan is to build a massive tunnel under stone henge to help traffic and remove the blotch on this area of historic importance. It's expected to cost £1.7Bn but it's already been completely tied up in legal fights, it was proposed over 25 years ago (when it was already desparately needed). Essentially plenty of people either don't want it built at all (presumably just accepting that we'll never ever be able to have economic in england west of stonehenge) or they want a tunnel that is several times longer than the proposal sending costs and construction time soaring.

What you could do, if you were Turkey, you could just built a 12 lane motorway and shove stonehenge a few miles north. It'd be cheaper.

Re: Why U.S. Infrastructure Costs So Much

#130

Post by temp8964 » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 10:49 PM UTC

wolverine876 wrote: post #114

GhettoComputers wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is only one political party, you can see it in effect of their governance. Locally they might do things differently, the “land/city” way regardless of their party.

You can't see the difference between the current Democratic Party and GOP? I heard that argument for years, but now it's like saying there's no difference between day and night.

Apparently you don't see (don't want to see) the point of the discussion. The context here is not about their ideology or superficial talking points. It's about the mechanism of the power structure. No matter which party gets in control, it will always want to increase national debt, always go for more money and more concentration of power. This is the same mechanism applies to everybody, anybody who doesn't want to play the game would have been excluded from the game long time ago. Anybody who doesn't want to play with the established power structure will be easily destroyed.