Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with China in 2016 • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with China in 2016

#111

Post by manquer » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 9:47 PM UTC

sneak wrote: post #100

pupppet wrote: post #27

This will be the logical conclusion to every major American corporation unless someone puts a stop to this. If profit comes before everything, then so will China's 1.4B potential market vs US's 330M market.

You are forgetting about manufacturing. While China is indeed an important and huge market for sales... approximately 100% of Apple's products are manufactured in China (save some tiny fraction that are assembled in India or Texas). Every iPhone sold everywhere worldwide (except the few assembled in India) comes from China. Apple cannot exist without China. Full stop.

China is not the only cheap manufacturing hub. If Apple wanted to, they could be investing their 100's of billions (instead of stock buy backs they have been doing for years) in alternative locations to build their capability in other geographies.

Apple is still doing China because it wants to, not because it has to. At their size they have the time and money to invest in multiple locations and spread their risks.

Re: Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with China in 2016

#112

Post by vdqtp3 » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 9:48 PM UTC

arcticbull wrote: post #62

echelon wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A Reddit comment [1] on this same article really hit home, > Mr. Cook has watched China's middle class grow to four hundred million while watching the domestic middle class shrink. Like GM, which sells more cars in China than the USA, Apple knows where the market opportunities reside. America needs growth again, whether that's immigration, childbirth and childcare subsidies, or seeking to merge with other democratic…

> ... seeking to merge with other democratic nations (Australia, Korea, Japan, Taiwan). That presumes that other countries want to be part of America. I suspect strongly you'll find that's not the case. Merger then has a more "1812" feeling to it. The only folks tripping over their shoelaces to be US states are Puerto Rico and DC. > America needs to onshore manufacturing of critical chemicals and components. Steel. E…

> tripping over their shoelaces to be US states are Puerto Rico

That's inaccurate, repeated votes for statehood in PR have failed.

Re: Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with China in 2016

#113

Post by m4rtink » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 9:49 PM UTC

pvarangot wrote: post #61

echelon wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A Reddit comment [1] on this same article really hit home, > Mr. Cook has watched China's middle class grow to four hundred million while watching the domestic middle class shrink. Like GM, which sells more cars in China than the USA, Apple knows where the market opportunities reside. America needs growth again, whether that's immigration, childbirth and childcare subsidies, or seeking to merge with other democratic…

> America needs to onshore manufacturing of critical chemicals and components. Steel. Electronics. I'm all for countries having local manufacturing capabilities. Not just the US. I was also pretty vocal about Argentina having them when I lived there and I'd love the US to have more accessible local manufacturing now that I'm here. Thing is, as much as I can want that as an engineer with a somewhat cozy desk job it's…

On the other hand interdependence reduces the likelihood of conflict somewhat.

Re: Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with China in 2016

#114

Post by gbasin » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 9:51 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #77

ipv6ipv4 wrote: post #50

Daring Fireball [1] has another passage from the article which is illuminating with regards to any promises Apple makes about how it will resist governmental pressure to compromise its products, vis-à-vis Apple's CSAM scanning tool. "Sometime in 2014 or early 2015, China’s State Bureau of Surveying and Mapping told members of the Apple Maps team to make the Diaoyu Islands, the objects of a long-running territorial di…

Anyone who has worked in mapping/GIS at a company that sells in China has seen this in action. The "display these islands larger" requests, the obfuscated coordinate system for geo-aligning maps, and other map content regulatory issues[1] all need to be dealt with if you want your map product available in the country. Not excusing it, but every company with maps there is required to do this, not just Apple. 1: https:…

I compared the same area in apple vs google maps, the islands don't even show up in google unless you zoom way in. You sure about this?

Re: Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with China in 2016

#115

Post by kelnos » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 9:51 PM UTC

gonehome wrote: post #78

qeternity wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally get that people want companies to act with dignity, but the idea that a company, even one as large as Apple, is going to make any sort of difference with respect to China's oddities is wishful thinking. Apple has a business to run. They abide by all sorts of requests in various countries in which they operate. Of course there has to be a line somewhere, I'm just not sure this is it.

I think these things have a corrupting influence on the principles of the company over time: https://zalberico.com/essay/2020/06/13/zoom-in-china.html It's better to figure out an exit (imo) than continue to capitulate on these kinds of things, particularly in a country that is hostile to foreign companies and IP (and particularly if one of your company values is the privacy of your users). --- >>Peter Thiel: Well I…

Not disagreeing with what Thiel is saying here, but it's pretty hypocritical for him to be criticizing here considering he's the co-founder of Palantir, a company that feeds some tasty tasty morsels to the surveillance state and military-industrial complex.

Re: Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with China in 2016

#116

Post by mullingitover » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 9:51 PM UTC

makapuf wrote: post #103

mullingitover wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That presumes that other countries want to be part of America. I feel like if there was a referendum, the UK's population would happily dump their monarchy in exchange for US statehood. There's a lot of commonality with their democracy, language, skepticism of foreign immigration, embrace of capitalism, etc. It would also be a pretty solid strategic move to bring the US closer to Europe as a hedge against the Russi…

UK dumped EU, which didn't asked for country dissolution, not sure it would agree to join USA...

UK voters (imho) were still stinging from the economic decline and austerity measures post-2008, and were led to believe that a divorce from the EU would restore their greatness. Now that that's been demonstrated to be a delusion, and with covid-related economic collapse piling on top of Brexit consequences, UK voters might be open to a dice roll.

This is obviously my idle speculation, and I think the UK voters would never be allowed to vote on such an opportunity anyway. Still, I think if it happened it'd be great for everyone.

Re: Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with China in 2016

#117

Post by ipv6ipv4 » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 9:52 PM UTC

qeternity wrote: post #73

ipv6ipv4 wrote: post #50

Daring Fireball [1] has another passage from the article which is illuminating with regards to any promises Apple makes about how it will resist governmental pressure to compromise its products, vis-à-vis Apple's CSAM scanning tool. "Sometime in 2014 or early 2015, China’s State Bureau of Surveying and Mapping told members of the Apple Maps team to make the Diaoyu Islands, the objects of a long-running territorial di…

I totally get that people want companies to act with dignity, but the idea that a company, even one as large as Apple, is going to make any sort of difference with respect to China's oddities is wishful thinking. Apple has a business to run. They abide by all sorts of requests in various countries in which they operate. Of course there has to be a line somewhere, I'm just not sure this is it.

We can have a very long debate about that but I think it's beside the point with regards to Apple's CSAM effort. The point is that Apple is inventing a tool that is very amenable to being wielded as a weapon of mass surveillance, and oppression.

The maps analogy is that it's one thing for the Chinese government to tell Apple to implement a mapping app from scratch so that it can be used to display bogus mapping data. It's quite another for the Chinese government to tell Apple to modify its existing Maps app data.

In light of the inherent amorality of companies that you are pointing out, the people working in these companies should be smart enough not to go out of their way to place themselves in situations with such moral hazards. Apple shouldn't be building weapons.

Re: Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with China in 2016

#118

Post by vmception » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 9:52 PM UTC

kelnos wrote: post #102

qeternity wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally get that people want companies to act with dignity, but the idea that a company, even one as large as Apple, is going to make any sort of difference with respect to China's oddities is wishful thinking. Apple has a business to run. They abide by all sorts of requests in various countries in which they operate. Of course there has to be a line somewhere, I'm just not sure this is it.

I know this would never happen, but I wish companies would just default to not doing business in China, unless they are able to sell their product, uncompromised. I wouldn't mind legislation to that effect, though I'm sure that would come with a ton of unintended consequences. If China (and similar repressive regimes) wants these sorts of products with onerous restrictions built in, they should have to build them the…

When I see state capital or communist societies, I see "single whale that has to purchase at inflated prices"

I'll spin up a British Virgin Islands company or buy another passport first in response to any legislation aimed at preventing business with those whales

Others are already 5 steps ahead of me

Re: Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with China in 2016

#119

Post by vkou » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 9:52 PM UTC

idiotsecant wrote: post #86

didibus wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I want America to be #1. Free speech, being critical of government, and even having the ability to run for president are rights that every person should have In principle I agree with you, but in practicality something maybe isn't working as expected? If those things mattered so much, why would the Chinese middle class have grown so much while the American middle class shrank? (assuming this is true, which I'm not…

>Most people would rather be able to afford food, clothes, a home, electronic, entertainment, etc, than they would the ability to be critical. The Chinese 'middle class' standard of medical care ( on average, a lot cheaper but it's also a very basic level of care), financial security, air / water / consumer good safety, access to meaningful education, and freedom of worship / speech / congregation of all types is wel…

The difference is that Russia has been stuck in that quagmire for 30 years[1], whereas in China, most of those people would have been impoverished rural poor, 30 years ago.

When you have observed a colossal material improvement in your life, and you have hope for the future, you can overlook a lot of problems with governance.

[1] Yes, yes, Moscow is not an active disaster zone. Russia does not begin and end in Moscow, though.

Re: Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with China in 2016

#120

Post by breakfastduck » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 9:53 PM UTC

cm2012 wrote: post #54

cdot2 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The agricultural revolution and it's consequences have been a disaster for the human race?

Contrary to popular internet belief, hunter gatherer life sucked way worse.

There is absolutely no way at all to verify that claim - considering 'better/worse' entirely depends on the happiness of those individuals. Something we have no way of measuring.