Why U.S. Infrastructure Costs So Much • Hacker News Board

Re: Why U.S. Infrastructure Costs So Much

#41

Post by m0llusk » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 9:27 PM UTC

This article is toxic garbage.

The best example of this is how the NYC Second Avenue subway project is cited as an example of costs out of control. This project was initially proposed around a hundred years ago and over time was repeatedly rejected as being far too expensive to ever make sense and then raised again and again for consideration. At the time the work started there was a hundred years of literature going into detail about the many complexities involving other power, water, and sewer infrastructure as well as multiple other subway lines and difficult geological constraints. Well before any work was done it was extremely well established that a Second Avenue subway could only ever be astronomically expensive.

Taking a project that was refused for a hundred years because of the apparent extreme difficulties and using that as an example of how US infrastructure costs too much is blatant manipulation. The nearest popular comparison I can think of would be saying that American military efforts cost too much because D-Day was shockingly expensive. Military conflicts don't work that way and neither does infrastructure construction.

Re: Why U.S. Infrastructure Costs So Much

#42

Post by Naac » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 9:27 PM UTC

missedthecue wrote: post #39

One thing the article misses is that construction worker productivity has been on the downtrend for decades https://cdn.substack.com/image/fetch/w_600,c_limit,f_auto,q_...

Please follow up to the article/source of this graph.

Re: Why U.S. Infrastructure Costs So Much

#43

Post by ska » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 9:28 PM UTC

davidw wrote: post #29

sofard wrote: post #10

I was a management consultant ages ago and worked on large capital projects. In my experience (as the article mentions) it was a mix of: 1. Red tape & public "input" 2. Layers of contractors and subcontractors, each taking their slice 3. No real incentives for governments to be cost sensitive. Usually capital projects last well into the next administration. 4. Too many cooks in the kitchen and consultations

These are all things, but they're things in other countries, too. France has strong unions and subcontractors and bureaucrats and all of that. And yet it costs less there.

I think it's a mistake to think of european unions and american unions as "the same thing". Relationships with unions in the US seem much more adversarial than there, on average.

As you say, there are politics, labor relations, etc. in europe too - I wonder if they are just better at cooperating on this sort of project for some reason?

Re: Why U.S. Infrastructure Costs So Much

#44

Post by rootusrootus » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 9:29 PM UTC

I still remember when Oregon paid $175M to plan the new I5 bridge across the Columbia River, only for the entire plan to collapse. That is close to 40% of what the nearby Glenn Jackson I205 bridge cost in total.

$114M of that went to one contractor (and their subs).

Re: Why U.S. Infrastructure Costs So Much

#45

Post by bearjaws » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 9:29 PM UTC

I am of the opinion that continuing to build out all these long 'runs' of infrastructure to serve a even more spread out populace is a dead end. Where I live we spent tens of billions expanding highway infrastructure, and it has not improved the lives of anyone meaningfully, traffic is as bad as its ever been.

We need to spend more money creating better metropolitan areas that people want to live in, rather than using tax payer money to support fewer and fewer people.

Re: Why U.S. Infrastructure Costs So Much

#46

Post by jltsiren » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 9:31 PM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #22

phenkdo wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO #2 takes the cake (rest is all icing)

In my experience with construction projects, legal costs and liabilities take the cake. Once something is in court, there is zero telling how long and how much money it takes to resolve.

This is interesting from a foreign perspective. I still follow urban planning in Helsinki, Finland. Major public projects always face opposition and go to court, but it's not a big deal.

Because zoning plans and similar project plans are decisions made by public officials, all complaints about them go to the administrative court system. Administrative courts don't care about the substance of the argument. (That's for elected representatives.) They only determine if the officials followed all appropriate regulations and decisiomaking processes. Going to administrative court is cheap enough and fast enough that the costs and delays are usually included in the project plan.

Sometime the court overturns the decision, delaying or canceling the project. Sometimes their justifications are stupid and sometimes there are unintended consequences. Regardless, the system more or less works most of the time.

Re: Why U.S. Infrastructure Costs So Much

#47

Post by ska » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 9:31 PM UTC

mistrial9 wrote: post #25

sofard wrote: post #10

I was a management consultant ages ago and worked on large capital projects. In my experience (as the article mentions) it was a mix of: 1. Red tape & public "input" 2. Layers of contractors and subcontractors, each taking their slice 3. No real incentives for governments to be cost sensitive. Usually capital projects last well into the next administration. 4. Too many cooks in the kitchen and consultations

I have seen some public transportation work up close in the USA -- "me first" and competition between different teams ate up quite a bit of the (expensive) time.. lots of very competent, skilled people and also quite cynical and profit-seeking management. The actions of management were sometimes directly contradictory to recommendations by hard-working staff. Worse, management that tried to get things done quickly we…

> "we have the worst system in the world, except for all the others" .. comes to mind

Wouldn't that imply the US system has better execution, not just higher costs?

Re: Why U.S. Infrastructure Costs So Much

#48

Post by davidw » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 9:31 PM UTC

KingMachiavelli wrote: post #16

Every time any land is going to be developed where I live (Denver/Boulder/etc.), there is always a thread on Nextdoor advocating for people to stop it by raising environmental concerns and putting in a ton of comments. If 1/10 projects get canceled due to individual objections that means a lot of time and money gets wasted. Another 4/10 projects might eventually get built but only after long drawn out discussions and…

The article hints at this NIMBYism. Many of the other things that factor in are not unique to the US. Government waste, bureaucracy, etc... are all things in other wealthy countries too, but NIMBYism and 'public input' seems to carry more weight in the US.

Re: Why U.S. Infrastructure Costs So Much

#49

Post by pxeboot » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 9:32 PM UTC

I have worked on government IT projects. A long standing joke for writing quotes was "For local/state government, add a zero. For the feds, add two zeros". This wasn't entirely accurate, but often close.

Re: Why U.S. Infrastructure Costs So Much

#50

Post by davidw » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 9:32 PM UTC

ska wrote: post #43

davidw wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are all things, but they're things in other countries, too. France has strong unions and subcontractors and bureaucrats and all of that. And yet it costs less there.

I think it's a mistake to think of european unions and american unions as "the same thing". Relationships with unions in the US seem much more adversarial than there, on average. As you say, there are politics, labor relations, etc. in europe too - I wonder if they are just better at cooperating on this sort of project for some reason?

I think that's what makes it interesting and important to figure out on a deeper level. Simplistic answers don't seem to explain the problem.