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Groups never admit failure

nav.al

81–90 of 370 posts

Re: Groups never admit failure

#81
> A group will never admit they were wrong. A group will never admit, “We made a mistake,” because a group that tries to change its mind falls apart. I’m hard pressed to find examples in history of large groups that said, “We thought A, but the answer’s actually B.”

Germany openly regrets Nazis and Hitler. In the US we admit that letting McCarthy run amok was a huge mistake. Globally billions of people admit that we were wrong to let short term economic interests steam-roll the environment for the last century.

This article feels like a “my logical-to-me sounding hypothesis must be true because I haven’t thought of any counter-examples” rationalization. It doesn’t examine any cases of groups admitting being wrong, and there are lots in history. It doesn’t ask the question why is a group being wrong is a legitimately harder conclusion to come to, even from people external to the group. There usually are debates and individuals causing things to go one way or another.

Re: Groups never admit failure

#83
> But I would argue that the best businesses are the ones that are for-profit, sustainable and ethical so you can attract the best people. You can sustain it because it’s a mission and it’s not just about the money—because there are diminishing returns to making money. There’s a diminishing marginal utility to the money in your life

This is ideological, in practice, just like non-profit fail to be profitable, for-profit fail to be ethical.

Re: Groups never admit failure

#84
> Groups never admit failure.

> A group will never admit they were wrong.

ConstitutionDAO tried to buy the US Constitution. When the auction ended there was a large Twitter spaces group that mistakenly celebrated CDAO's 'win' in the auction.

However, when it was revealed that CDAO actually lost the bid, the Twitter spaces group admitted they were wrong and that CDAO failed and then announced it to everyone in the group. [0]

This group admitted failure.

[0] https://www.vice.com/en/article/wxd5z9/chaos-reigns-as-const...

Re: Groups never admit failure

#85

Quoted post unavailable.

The Soviet bloc was not noted for being driven by profit, but they still caused lots of environmental devastations. Roving bands of hunter-gatherers weren't driven by profit, either, but they still hunted a number of North American megafauna to extinction.

So I'd say that you are also preaching an ideology - one that an objective look at reality shows to be overly simplistic.

Re: Groups never admit failure

#86

I can’t agree more with this post. This brings to mind some Milton Friedman quotes: * Governments never learn. Only people learn. * One of the great mistakes is to judge policies and programs by their intentions rather than their results. * He moves fastest who moves alone. * Nobody spends somebody else’s money as carefully as he spends his own. Nobody uses somebody else’s resources as carefully as he uses his own… *…

Friedman was an economist who worked closely with Reagan, if I recall correctly, I'm not surprised he also liked to trot out a "social security bad" soundbite.

Re: Groups never admit failure

#88
post #3

A group will never admit they were wrong. A group will never admit, “We made a mistake,” because a group that tries to change its mind falls apart. I’m hard pressed to find examples in history of large groups that said, “We thought A, but the answer’s actually B.” Now that is a useful insight. It's a big problem for voluntary associations. Companies can sometimes change their culture, but it usually requires replacin…

Similar to the "Gun Club" (and also in the U.S. in the WWII era) was the Bomber Mafia - convinced that lots of long-range heavy bombers could win any war:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bomber_Mafia

They were profoundly resistant to reality (such as sustained "unsustainable" loss rates in un-escorted daytime bomber attacks on Germany), or even ideological compromises (such as long-range fighter escorts for those bombers)...up to the point where the en-mass sacking of mafia members, or massive "de-emphasis" of their branch of the armed forces were clear and present dangers.

Re: Groups never admit failure

#89
post #3

A group will never admit they were wrong. A group will never admit, “We made a mistake,” because a group that tries to change its mind falls apart. I’m hard pressed to find examples in history of large groups that said, “We thought A, but the answer’s actually B.” Now that is a useful insight. It's a big problem for voluntary associations. Companies can sometimes change their culture, but it usually requires replacin…

Probably that can be a useful insight in some specific circumstances as you describe, but it falls flat as a generalization. Allow me a snark: maybe a group of venture capitalists (many of whom call themselves "angels") might not admit a mistake. But many groups (not as grandiose as the military, though) jolly well admit and own up non-trivial mistakes.

I participate in several open source projects over 13 years now. And as jancsika mentions in this thread, various times I've seen mature groups of contributors and maintainers admit, and articulate, really difficult mistakes in public. Granted, these are small groups ranging from six to twenty-ish. Still, it takes courage and wisdom to do it gracefully.

Re: Groups never admit failure

#90

The principle claim of this essay is that groups never change their viewpoints. What's ironic is that it appears in a public environment in which groups are changing their viewpoints, often quite publicly. Many are taking extreme heat for this. Technical projects and groups are adopting codes of conduct and behaviour, changing stances on what had long been accepted. Companies are similarly changing their views on wha…

This could just be about the scope you attach to a group. If the composition of the group changes is it still the same group?

I feel most of the changes you mentioned saw a churn in the members of the groups themselves.

Also, the article mentions changes can happen but not without a schism, which I feel most of your examples demonstrate that a schism is happening.

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