Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with China in 2016 • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with China in 2016

#71

Post by gonehome » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 9:07 PM UTC

didibus wrote: post #65

echelon wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A Reddit comment [1] on this same article really hit home, > Mr. Cook has watched China's middle class grow to four hundred million while watching the domestic middle class shrink. Like GM, which sells more cars in China than the USA, Apple knows where the market opportunities reside. America needs growth again, whether that's immigration, childbirth and childcare subsidies, or seeking to merge with other democratic…

> I want America to be #1. Free speech, being critical of government, and even having the ability to run for president are rights that every person should have In principle I agree with you, but in practicality something maybe isn't working as expected? If those things mattered so much, why would the Chinese middle class have grown so much while the American middle class shrank? (assuming this is true, which I'm not…

> "why would the Chinese middle class have grown so much while the American middle class shrank?"

Going through an industrial revolution has impressive growth effects that can cover up a lot of bad stuff.

We'll see what happens when that growth starts to slow - I don't think it'll be good.

Re: Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with China in 2016

#72

Post by laurent92 » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 9:08 PM UTC

justinator wrote: post #46

mempko wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China simply invested more in their people than USA it seems. You now see American business people like Elon Musk promote divestment from the USA in his attack on government deficits.

> China simply invested more in their people than USA it seems So long as you're not Muslim.

France has invested a lot in their Muslims, and only has neighborhood violence to show for it. It’s the most costly people to invest in.

Re: Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with China in 2016

#73

Post by qeternity » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 9:09 PM UTC

ipv6ipv4 wrote: post #50

Daring Fireball [1] has another passage from the article which is illuminating with regards to any promises Apple makes about how it will resist governmental pressure to compromise its products, vis-à-vis Apple's CSAM scanning tool. "Sometime in 2014 or early 2015, China’s State Bureau of Surveying and Mapping told members of the Apple Maps team to make the Diaoyu Islands, the objects of a long-running territorial di…

I totally get that people want companies to act with dignity, but the idea that a company, even one as large as Apple, is going to make any sort of difference with respect to China's oddities is wishful thinking.

Apple has a business to run. They abide by all sorts of requests in various countries in which they operate. Of course there has to be a line somewhere, I'm just not sure this is it.

Re: Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with China in 2016

#74

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 9:09 PM UTC

MangoCoffee wrote: post #59

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assumed it was firstly access to Chinese manufacturing. They can probably still make humongous profits without the Chinese market, but presumably their global sales rely on first manufacturing in China?

>their global sales rely on first manufacturing in China? for the past years but China's wages is increasing and Chinese crack down on tech company like Alibaba, Tencent, DiDi...etc. would it extend to foreign company? Not to mention the rise of Chinese domestic tech company like Xiaomi. it look like Apple is not making their money back in China with this deal. "To placate Beijing, though, some capital may have serve…

[deleted]

Re: Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with China in 2016

#75

Post by alliao » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 9:10 PM UTC

MangoCoffee wrote: post #59

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assumed it was firstly access to Chinese manufacturing. They can probably still make humongous profits without the Chinese market, but presumably their global sales rely on first manufacturing in China?

>their global sales rely on first manufacturing in China? for the past years but China's wages is increasing and Chinese crack down on tech company like Alibaba, Tencent, DiDi...etc. would it extend to foreign company? Not to mention the rise of Chinese domestic tech company like Xiaomi. it look like Apple is not making their money back in China with this deal. "To placate Beijing, though, some capital may have serve…

even less when you take out Taiwan's revenue from that 249bn

Re: Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with China in 2016

#76

Post by MangoCoffee » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 9:10 PM UTC

pasabagi wrote: post #30

frozenport wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. was done in secret 2. traded seemingly unrelated investments aka you can build your computers if you invest in our SAAS 3. technology transfer may be a violation of us export controls Its really not obvious if the Chinese win because it's an extremely opaque way to choose winners and losers.

> 1. was done in secret Was it? Reading the article, the only 'secret' component was the lobbying, which is obviously done behind closed doors. Everything else is public commitments and public statements - which makes sense, since they were trying to pour oil on troubled chinese waters. FWIW, western media often suggests stuff is 'secret' in china, because they can't read chinese, and all those orientals are awfully…

>western media often suggests stuff is 'secret' in china, because they can't read chinese, and all those orientals are awfully mysterious.

this is stupid.

BBC Chinese (https://www.bbc.com/zhongwen/simp) have many Chinese/people who can speak/read/write Chinese.

large Western Media have Chinese staffs just like any large Chinese Media in China, HK or Taiwan with people capable of speak/read/write English.

Re: Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with China in 2016

#77

Post by ryandrake » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 9:12 PM UTC

ipv6ipv4 wrote: post #50

Daring Fireball [1] has another passage from the article which is illuminating with regards to any promises Apple makes about how it will resist governmental pressure to compromise its products, vis-à-vis Apple's CSAM scanning tool. "Sometime in 2014 or early 2015, China’s State Bureau of Surveying and Mapping told members of the Apple Maps team to make the Diaoyu Islands, the objects of a long-running territorial di…

Anyone who has worked in mapping/GIS at a company that sells in China has seen this in action. The "display these islands larger" requests, the obfuscated coordinate system for geo-aligning maps, and other map content regulatory issues[1] all need to be dealt with if you want your map product available in the country. Not excusing it, but every company with maps there is required to do this, not just Apple.

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restrictions_on_geographic_dat...

Re: Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with China in 2016

#78

Post by gonehome » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 9:14 PM UTC

qeternity wrote: post #73

ipv6ipv4 wrote: post #50

Daring Fireball [1] has another passage from the article which is illuminating with regards to any promises Apple makes about how it will resist governmental pressure to compromise its products, vis-à-vis Apple's CSAM scanning tool. "Sometime in 2014 or early 2015, China’s State Bureau of Surveying and Mapping told members of the Apple Maps team to make the Diaoyu Islands, the objects of a long-running territorial di…

I totally get that people want companies to act with dignity, but the idea that a company, even one as large as Apple, is going to make any sort of difference with respect to China's oddities is wishful thinking. Apple has a business to run. They abide by all sorts of requests in various countries in which they operate. Of course there has to be a line somewhere, I'm just not sure this is it.

I think these things have a corrupting influence on the principles of the company over time: https://zalberico.com/essay/2020/06/13/zoom-in-china.html

It's better to figure out an exit (imo) than continue to capitulate on these kinds of things, particularly in a country that is hostile to foreign companies and IP (and particularly if one of your company values is the privacy of your users).

---

>>Peter Thiel: Well I think, again those aren’t the only two possibilities, I don’t think they created very much, I think a lot of it was just handed over from the west so it wasn’t even stolen.

You know, I criticized Google a few years ago for refusing to work on its AI technology on Project Maven with the U.S. military, but working with Chinese universities and Chinese researchers. And since everything in China is a civilian- military fusion, Google was effectively working with the Chinese military, not with the American military. And there was sort of this question, “Why Google was doing this?” And one of the things that I was sort of told by some of the insiders at Google was they figured they might as well give the technology out through the front door, because if they didn’t give it – it would get stolen anyway.

>>Peter Thiel: I had a set of conversations with some of the Google people in the deep mind AI technology, “is your AI being used to run the concentration camps in Xinjiang?” and “Well, We don’t know and don’t ask any questions.” You have this almost magical thinking that by pretending that everything is fine, that’s how you engage and have a conversation. And you make the world better. And it’s some combination of wishful thinking. It’s useful idiots, you know, it’s CCP fifth columnist collaborators. So it’s some super position of all these things. But I think if you think of it ideologically or in terms of human rights or something like that, I’m tempted to say it’s just profoundly racist. It’s like saying that because they look different, they’re not white people, they don’t have the same rights. It’s something super wrong. But I don’t quite know how you unlock that.

https://nixonseminar.com/2021/04/the-nixon-seminar-april-6-2...

Re: Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with China in 2016

#79

Post by tooltalk » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 9:15 PM UTC

arcticbull wrote: post #55

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assumed it was firstly access to Chinese manufacturing. They can probably still make humongous profits without the Chinese market, but presumably their global sales rely on first manufacturing in China?

Yep, and it's likely that China is the only place they could actually manufacture their products. China isn't the cheapest place to make things anymore, and it hasn't been in a long time - that's been supplanted by Bangladesh, Vietnam, etc. It's even within spitting distance to manufacture in the US. Companies manufacture complex electronics products in China because everyone manufactures there. The skills are there,…

Samsung is the largest smartphone-maker in the world (and has been for much of past 10+ years). They ceased all their phone-making operation in China and left for Vietnam a couple of years ago (also most recently closed their last display, shipbuilding operation) -- along with 200+ suppliers, plus 20+ new domestic suppliers created there along the way. Now, most of Samsung phones are made in Vietnam and their output there accounts for some 30% of Vietnam's export and 20% of their GDP (2019).

I'm very skeptical that China is the only place Apple can make their products. Sure, Apple doesn't actually "manufacture" anything -- the company outsourced it to Taiwnese CM's like Foxconn, Wistron, and others who have cleary demonstrated that they have no competence, experience, or even desire to build things outside China (see Foxconn's misadventures in Brazil, Wisconsin US). But that shouldnt' be surprising considering that their business model entirely depends on ginormous state subsidies and seemingly unlimited supply of young, unskilled laborers from rural China. Also consider the fact that most critical, high-value components come from not China, but South Korea, Japan, the US (some via TSMC in Taiwan) -- China still makes less than 5% of all chips produced globally (as of 2019 according to US SIA). Of course, they are all assembled/packaged there, but China's contribution to this whole process still accounts for less than 4% of overall value.

I just don't buy the argument that China as the world's electronic supply-chain can't be replaced.

Re: Apple CEO Tim Cook 'secretly' signed $275B deal with China in 2016

#80

Post by fundad » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 9:16 PM UTC

dirtyid wrote: post #47

Apple was growing massively in PRC in mid 2010s, should not be surprising they got roped into more prosocial and pro-establishment (read CCP) obligations. If memory serve this was right after Apple started clean energy programs in 2015 and PRC regulators shutting down itunes books & movies. >Cook's negotiations led to the successful signing of the multibillion-dollar agreement, quashing a number of regulatory actions…

It's not surprising but it's a surprise. All the lobbying for the US Tariff exemptions were out in the open, if it was revealed as a surprise it would look like bribery.