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Groups never admit failure

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Re: Groups never admit failure

#31

Post by dang »

poetically wrote: post #4

Quoted post unavailable.

Please don't take HN threads on generic ideological tangents. I'm not saying you're wrong, but these lead to reliably repetitive and tedious discussion, which is not on topic for a site focused on intellectual curiosity.

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so...

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so...

Separately—but related—please don't take HN threads into flamewar. You can make your substantive points without snark, swipes, or flamebait; on HN, please do so.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Edit: also, please don't cross into personal attack. You did that repeatedly in the thread below.

Re: Groups never admit failure

#32

Post by asmos7 »

Animats wrote: post #3

A group will never admit they were wrong. A group will never admit, “We made a mistake,” because a group that tries to change its mind falls apart. I’m hard pressed to find examples in history of large groups that said, “We thought A, but the answer’s actually B.” Now that is a useful insight. It's a big problem for voluntary associations. Companies can sometimes change their culture, but it usually requires replacin…

people have a hard time realizing when the technology they've spent their lives learning and perfecting is no longer applicable

Re: Groups never admit failure

#33

Post by poetically »

mlyle wrote: post #29
poetically wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a common confusion. My argument is with profits and not with human nature because human nature is malleable. People can change their eating habits, they can change their transportation habits, they can change institutional arrangements that favor profits over well-being, they can change the forms of market transactions they find valuable. This isn't anything deep. These are just basic facts.

Grandparent said. > > Money is the medium of transaction of human needs and desires. Profit causes global warming only in so much as it fulfills human needs and desires for light, heat, transportation, industry, and energy in general. Vs. > My argument is with profits and not with human nature because human nature is malleable. People can change their eating habits, they can change their transportation habits To the…

What exactly in human nature requires profit?

Re: Groups never admit failure

#34

Post by karaterobot »

> Groups never admit failure.

> A group will never admit they were wrong.

I liked this essay, but it seems like they combined these two observations together with their example about the non-profit. Failure and wrongness are not the same thing.

In their main example, it seems like the company did not admit when they had failed at their goals, and the solution to that is to measure the goals and be accountable. But they also did not question whether those goals were the wrong ones to pursue in the first place. Metrics would not improve that, and many for-profit companies run into that reality even while improving their KPIs quarter over quarter.

I would have liked that distinction to be teased out a little more.

In my experience, it's way easier to get a group to admit they have failed. Failure, after all, is only temporary, and often a reason to raise more funding. What's hard is to get groups to say "we need to question if we're working on the right problem", because that is an existential threat to the organization itself. People will fight hard not to change that: "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it," etc. etc.

Re: Groups never admit failure

#35

Post by tehjoker »

jschveibinz wrote: post #6

I can’t agree more with this post. This brings to mind some Milton Friedman quotes: * Governments never learn. Only people learn. * One of the great mistakes is to judge policies and programs by their intentions rather than their results. * He moves fastest who moves alone. * Nobody spends somebody else’s money as carefully as he spends his own. Nobody uses somebody else’s resources as carefully as he uses his own… *…

> One of the great mistakes is to judge policies and programs by their intentions rather than their results.

It's useful to remember what Friedman's advice did to Chile when he supported the Pinochet regime.

https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/the-chicago-boys-i...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cifamerica/2010/ma...

Re: Groups never admit failure

#36

Post by slibhb »

poetically wrote: post #10
AbrahamParangi wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Money is the medium of transaction of human needs and desires. Profit causes global warming only in so much as it fulfills human needs and desires for light, heat, transportation, industry, and energy in general. Your argument is not with profit but with human nature, which in its infinite ambition always desires more. Removing the profit motive is like shooting the messenger, your fundamental issue remains unaddress…

This is a common confusion. My argument is with profits and not with human nature because human nature is malleable. People can change their eating habits, they can change their transportation habits, they can change institutional arrangements that favor profits over well-being, they can change the forms of market transactions they find valuable. This isn't anything deep. These are just basic facts.

Far from basic facts. Human nature changes on an evolutionary timescale but not otherwise. Cultures change rapidly but we don't change them.

Re: Groups never admit failure

#37

Post by agumonkey »

Animats wrote: post #3

A group will never admit they were wrong. A group will never admit, “We made a mistake,” because a group that tries to change its mind falls apart. I’m hard pressed to find examples in history of large groups that said, “We thought A, but the answer’s actually B.” Now that is a useful insight. It's a big problem for voluntary associations. Companies can sometimes change their culture, but it usually requires replacin…

Actually I think any organism or group that can balance certainty and observation is peak.

Re: Groups never admit failure

#38

Post by SuoDuanDao »

dvtrn wrote: post #18
someguydave wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you wrote “human nature is malleable”

Saying "I believe humans have the capacity to change certain habits" isn't close the same thing as saying "I have the means to make people change".

So you don't have a solution?

Re: Groups never admit failure

#39

Post by snarf21 »

Animats wrote: post #3

A group will never admit they were wrong. A group will never admit, “We made a mistake,” because a group that tries to change its mind falls apart. I’m hard pressed to find examples in history of large groups that said, “We thought A, but the answer’s actually B.” Now that is a useful insight. It's a big problem for voluntary associations. Companies can sometimes change their culture, but it usually requires replacin…

It is the same old thing, they became successful doing X and that works great until X isn't the optimal thing. However, after 50 years doing the same thing, they are a one trick pony.

Also, the A-10 is one heck of a plane and always my favorite. Largest caliber nose cannon and the ability to limp back to base on one engine and one rudder is so freaking cool. There is a National Guard base nearby and it is so cool watching them do flybys on the small mountains.

Re: Groups never admit failure

#40

Post by m0llusk »

Apple was forced to admit that its efforts to develop a next generation operating system failed so they looked around and after considering both BeOS and NeXT Apple bought NeXT and began work on what would be called Mac OS X which is what many of you used to read this.
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