Groups never admit failure • Hacker News Board

Re: Groups never admit failure

#11

Post by AbrahamParangi » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 7:38 PM UTC

poetically wrote: post #10

AbrahamParangi wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Money is the medium of transaction of human needs and desires. Profit causes global warming only in so much as it fulfills human needs and desires for light, heat, transportation, industry, and energy in general. Your argument is not with profit but with human nature, which in its infinite ambition always desires more. Removing the profit motive is like shooting the messenger, your fundamental issue remains unaddress…

This is a common confusion. My argument is with profits and not with human nature because human nature is malleable. People can change their eating habits, they can change their transportation habits, they can change institutional arrangements that favor profits over well-being, they can change the forms of market transactions they find valuable. This isn't anything deep. These are just basic facts.

So you believe that you have a way of changing the nature of humanity? This seems like the big claim, rather than the small one.

Re: Groups never admit failure

#12

Post by poetically » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 7:39 PM UTC

AbrahamParangi wrote: post #11

poetically wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a common confusion. My argument is with profits and not with human nature because human nature is malleable. People can change their eating habits, they can change their transportation habits, they can change institutional arrangements that favor profits over well-being, they can change the forms of market transactions they find valuable. This isn't anything deep. These are just basic facts.

So you believe that you have a way of changing the nature of humanity? This seems like the big claim, rather than the small one.

Read what I said instead of projecting what you think I said. I did not say anything about changing human nature.

Re: Groups never admit failure

#13

Post by brightstep » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 7:49 PM UTC

AbrahamParangi wrote: post #8

poetically wrote: post #4

Quoted post unavailable.

Money is the medium of transaction of human needs and desires. Profit causes global warming only in so much as it fulfills human needs and desires for light, heat, transportation, industry, and energy in general. Your argument is not with profit but with human nature, which in its infinite ambition always desires more. Removing the profit motive is like shooting the messenger, your fundamental issue remains unaddress…

"Profit is human nature" is a fundamental myth of capitalism, and obviously untrue considering the many economic systems which existed until the last few hundred years.

Re: Groups never admit failure

#14

Post by someguydave » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 7:55 PM UTC

poetically wrote: post #12

AbrahamParangi wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you believe that you have a way of changing the nature of humanity? This seems like the big claim, rather than the small one.

Read what I said instead of projecting what you think I said. I did not say anything about changing human nature.

you wrote “human nature is malleable”

Re: Groups never admit failure

#15

Post by poetically » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 7:57 PM UTC

someguydave wrote: post #14

poetically wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read what I said instead of projecting what you think I said. I did not say anything about changing human nature.

you wrote “human nature is malleable”

That's a fact. If you were born somewhere else you would be an entirely different person. You'd be speaking a different language, you'd be involved in different social arrangements and institutions, and you'd think the axioms of your reality were entirely different.

Re: Groups never admit failure

#16

Post by someguydave » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 7:59 PM UTC

poetically wrote: post #15

someguydave wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you wrote “human nature is malleable”

That's a fact. If you were born somewhere else you would be an entirely different person. You'd be speaking a different language, you'd be involved in different social arrangements and institutions, and you'd think the axioms of your reality were entirely different.

Where is your evidence for that claim?

Re: Groups never admit failure

#17

Post by lend000 » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 7:59 PM UTC

AbrahamParangi wrote: post #8

poetically wrote: post #4

Quoted post unavailable.

Money is the medium of transaction of human needs and desires. Profit causes global warming only in so much as it fulfills human needs and desires for light, heat, transportation, industry, and energy in general. Your argument is not with profit but with human nature, which in its infinite ambition always desires more. Removing the profit motive is like shooting the messenger, your fundamental issue remains unaddress…

This really hits the nail on the head. The OP cannot change human nature. The most vicious personalities in the business world, currently forced to create value (except where already able to seek rent from government inefficiency) would instead end up as government leaders in his socialist utopia, creating less value and no less pollution.

The answer is simply to capture externalities in a market economy. For example, I wouldn't outlaw smoking, but I would certainly tax the hell out of it to (as precisely as possible) counter-act the effects on nearby people. Same for any type of pollution -- the tax should be exactly what is required to "undo" it. If it cannot be practically undone and it is significantly harmful, then it can be banned outright (such as dumping of certain poisons and toxins into a water supply).

Re: Groups never admit failure

#18

Post by dvtrn » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 7:59 PM UTC

someguydave wrote: post #14

poetically wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read what I said instead of projecting what you think I said. I did not say anything about changing human nature.

you wrote “human nature is malleable”

Saying "I believe humans have the capacity to change certain habits" isn't close the same thing as saying "I have the means to make people change".

Re: Groups never admit failure

#19

Post by closeparen » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 7:59 PM UTC

poetically wrote: post #4

Quoted post unavailable.

People like meat. People like suburbs. People like air travel. Whether they signal these preferences with their wallets or at the ballot box is immaterial (and to be clear, they already do in both). Environmental damage is guaranteed by the fact that production is connected to desire.

Re: Groups never admit failure

#20

Post by VictorPath » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 8:00 PM UTC

AbrahamParangi wrote: post #8

poetically wrote: post #4

Quoted post unavailable.

Money is the medium of transaction of human needs and desires. Profit causes global warming only in so much as it fulfills human needs and desires for light, heat, transportation, industry, and energy in general. Your argument is not with profit but with human nature, which in its infinite ambition always desires more. Removing the profit motive is like shooting the messenger, your fundamental issue remains unaddress…

> Your argument is not with profit but with human nature

As capitalism and profit on capital only started on the steps to being the prevailing economic system in the fourteenth century, in pockets of Europe, I wonder what year it became "human nature" worldwide exactly - 1350? 1848?