Many physicists I know are not materialists— closer to Pythagorean-Platonism, where math is more real than “stuff“
Psychedelics alter metaphysical beliefs
211–220 of 258 posts
Re: Psychedelics alter metaphysical beliefs
#212Earlier quoted context omitted.
Ancient Greek philosophers could not measure anything, so this idea was at least somewhat plausible. Modern philosophers have no such excuse. We can simply measure the temperature of the water buckets and accept that our hands are very poor thermometers. Leaving aside the very difficult issue of the measurement problem in quantum mechanics, the last 200 or so years of science have clearly demonstrated that objective…
Oh really? So you mean things like the no-cloning theorem, no-copying theorem, the whole idea of quantum indeterminacy, and the fact that actual randomness exists gives you evidence for objective reality? Actually, it's exactly the opposite. A =/= A. Even if there was objective reality, it's not available to us. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-cloning_theorem https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_indeterminacy h…
You've got mounds and mounds of evidence for an objective and constant reality, and a few conundrums to unravel, and you then say "we don't know anything!" That's completely irrational. It sounds to me like you are looking to find data to fit your theory, you are HOPING we are in a simulation, and throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
I find this whole conversation so incredibly funny. Go tell a person serving a life-time jail sentence that what they are experiencing is not an objective reality. Day in and day out, the same cell, the same 24 hour cycle. A gazelle being eaten alive by a group of hyenas. A person jumping off a building to commit suicide. All of these things are simply illusions created by something, who knows what. Even though we don't know anything about THAT part, you are certain of it.
You've seen some goofy particles and have some fun mental puzzles to unlock so yeah, none of it is real!
Re: Psychedelics alter metaphysical beliefs
#213At the risk of being "that guy", it has to be said that this kind of study is unreliable. Posting a bunch of messages to r/drugs and r/psychedelics to come take their survey is going to suffer from all sorts of statistical biases. It is still better than the lowest for the study, the sample size of one: "Well this is what I experienced". Yet here I go. I have always been a materialist, and I've also never done drugs…
I believe your experiments have confirmation bias. Instead of doing your own controlled experiments, you should try doing ayahuasca, peyote or shrooms in their natural setting, with local people leading the way. I bet you’ll have a completely different experience.
By that reasoning, doesn't that mean you simply confirm the biases of the "local people leading the way" instead of your own?
Re: Psychedelics alter metaphysical beliefs
#214Earlier quoted context omitted.
Suppose for a moment that you and the people talking to you in this thread are talking past each other. What do you imagine the other people are trying to communicate to you, in their own terms?
They are positing a that all reality is unknowable because our senses can be fooled, and our brain is an unreliable narrator (if you will). No matter what evidence I bring to the table, they will simply say "but what if you are being fooled?"
I just wanted to give you props for actually understanding the point being made.
You don't need to agree with it, but at least you can see where I'm coming from!
I understand your frustration with there not really being an objective argument that would be able to deal with this thought experiment - I myself argued your case for a long time!
For all practical uses, the distinction is mostly pointless anyways, but it does make for some fun philosophical thought experiments! :-)
Re: Psychedelics alter metaphysical beliefs
#215Earlier quoted context omitted.
I've had the same experience. Can't shake the idea that `consciousness == god` and we are all tiny manifestations of this "essence", after some psychedelic trips. My rational mind always goes back to atheism when sober, but the idea is always there in the back of my mind.
http://www.galactanet.com/oneoff/theegg_mod.html https://youtu.be/wU0PYcCsL6o
Alan Watts is an excellent writer and speaker, absolutely worth reading and listening to. I can't help but feeling that the video wraps his speech into a pathos of melancholic, "full of emotions" song married to a meaningless set of disjointed clips.
I'd recommend reading his books, The Way of Zen was excellent.
Re: Psychedelics alter metaphysical beliefs
#216Earlier quoted context omitted.
I believe it's because it shows you that reality is not actually real. It's just a product of your senses. During a psychedelic trip, one might wonder "if I had been like this all my life, I would consider this to be reality, not what I'm used too". It fundamentally shows you that what you consider reality might be very, very, very wrong. So how can I trust my own senses and perceptions if they can be so powerfully m…
> What if the actual reality is what you experience during a trip Aldous Huxley touched on this idea of the brain acting as a valve or filter, wherein psychedelics loosen it and let through the stream of consciousness that you're alluding to.
Michael Pollan talks a lot about this in "Changing Your Mind".
Re: Psychedelics alter metaphysical beliefs
#217Slightly off topic, but: Jesus turning water into wine makes a lot more sense when he has access to some kind of potent hallucinogen. It also might explain everything else that went on back in Palestine 2000 years ago.
I don't think you need a strong hallucinogen for it. People were extremely superstitious; I wouldn't be surprised if we could explain some events with something like second-hand cannabis smoke and a strong drive to believe.
Re: Psychedelics alter metaphysical beliefs
#218Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think the point is that your sober perception exists only in your state of mind. My sober perception of the 'same' experiences you have is almost definitely not going to be the same as yours. So an altered state potentially gives you the realization that your personal experience isn't universal reality. In other words a personal perception of reality is not reality itself. This is why we have philosophy in general.…
This is such a silly conversation. We have cameras and all sorts of equipment that tracks a constant reality. Who gives a shit if people perceive it with varying levels of accuracy? What does it matter that introducing substances to the brain can reduce your ability to perceive it? There is evidence of reality, and childish mind games and semantic debates that it might not. I drop you off in the Gobi desert with no w…
Interestingly vision science has shown there is some sort of transfer function that takes the same data we get from cameras to build perception. This is why there are some optical illusions that only humans can see, esp. in regards to colors of a given type being surrounded by different colors and appearing different even in reality they computer doesn’t experience the color change.
Re: Psychedelics alter metaphysical beliefs
#219At the risk of being "that guy", it has to be said that this kind of study is unreliable. Posting a bunch of messages to r/drugs and r/psychedelics to come take their survey is going to suffer from all sorts of statistical biases. It is still better than the lowest for the study, the sample size of one: "Well this is what I experienced". Yet here I go. I have always been a materialist, and I've also never done drugs…
You should try going to an Orthodox Church and see how weird it is. It definitely makes you think of the spiritual meaning of things. THC alone makes me all spiritual feeling, and often in a good way. I think psychedelics would just take me to a scary spiritual place, not a euphoric one.
More conveniently, you could just say the words "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner" repeatedly to yourself. This prayer does things.
Re: Psychedelics alter metaphysical beliefs
#220Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think it's not a silly conversation at all. It hints to something that is so fundamental about existence. You seem stuck in circular reasoning. The point is that when in an altered state, your conventional, "sober" model of reality breaks down and no longer applies. I think people "break through" when they realize their model of reality was constructed according to what they perceived through their available sense…
> The point is that when in an altered state, your conventional, "sober" model of reality breaks down and no longer applies. Your sober model of reality 100% still applies. You are simply mis-perceiving what is happening in reality. The reality your mind is attempting to model is the only one that exists. Inducing chemicals that hinder your ability to perceive it does not indicate that it is a simulation. It is not a…
Sometimes I wonder if the people that claim they don't have an 'internal dialogue' in their head just haven't noticed it because they don't know where to look for it
There are many parts of conscious experience, that might not be noticed, but become extremely obvious in a Psychedelic state. It is like one of those hidden-image patterns. You would never know theres an image there, but once you see it, you can't unsee it - and you are struck by how blind you were to it before.
There are many correct ways to experience reality, operating off of the same source-of-truth data. Someone born with one eye can go their entire lives not knowing what it's like to _experience_ depth perception. You can give them all the cameras in the world, and they can fully understand the spacial relationships of all objects in the room, but they still wont be able to _experience_ depth, in their mental model of the world, like everyone else. They can't even begin to imagine it.
So, the carpet might not actually be swirling with fractal patterns. But It can be insightful to experience love as a fractal. You might notice parts of it that seemed one dimensional to you before.
woh man, that tree is beautiful.