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Psychedelics alter metaphysical beliefs

nature.com

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Re: Psychedelics alter metaphysical beliefs

#171

Post by vmception »

tasty_freeze wrote: post #65

At the risk of being "that guy", it has to be said that this kind of study is unreliable. Posting a bunch of messages to r/drugs and r/psychedelics to come take their survey is going to suffer from all sorts of statistical biases. It is still better than the lowest for the study, the sample size of one: "Well this is what I experienced". Yet here I go. I have always been a materialist, and I've also never done drugs…

you've done drugs. the disclaimer isn't useful at this point in time until psychedelics are on par with alcohol and FDA approved substances, where those are separated from "drugs"

Re: Psychedelics alter metaphysical beliefs

#172

Post by stadium »

tasty_freeze wrote: post #65

At the risk of being "that guy", it has to be said that this kind of study is unreliable. Posting a bunch of messages to r/drugs and r/psychedelics to come take their survey is going to suffer from all sorts of statistical biases. It is still better than the lowest for the study, the sample size of one: "Well this is what I experienced". Yet here I go. I have always been a materialist, and I've also never done drugs…

Psychedelics are known for amplifying existing emotions and thought patterns, the "set" in "set and setting."

Your experiment is very personal to your own mindset, and your focus on materialism likely influenced the outcomes.

Re: Psychedelics alter metaphysical beliefs

#173

Post by Der_Einzige »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #168
tasty_freeze wrote: post #65

At the risk of being "that guy", it has to be said that this kind of study is unreliable. Posting a bunch of messages to r/drugs and r/psychedelics to come take their survey is going to suffer from all sorts of statistical biases. It is still better than the lowest for the study, the sample size of one: "Well this is what I experienced". Yet here I go. I have always been a materialist, and I've also never done drugs…

I don't think the non-materialist argument is that the 'brain is not just chemistry'.

Well you are wrong.

Re: Psychedelics alter metaphysical beliefs

#174

Post by vicda »

slibhb wrote: post #157
cipheredStones wrote: post #11

Despite having had the relevant experience, I've always found it hard to understand why this happens. You know you're taking a drug that reliably induces feelings of "oceanic connectedness". Why should you change your worldview as a result? All kinds of things can change the way you feel temporarily, but most of them don't leave you thinking that you got insight into the way things really are. Maybe it's that psyched…

I had the same view until I tried dmt. With dmt, you can easily find a "break through" dose. This is the point where your consciousness stops being a disinterested spectator and gets sucked into the experience. The moment your consciousness gets pulled in is extremely disconcerting, I'd never felt anything like it (including other psychedelics). The resulting experiences are basically religious visions (I'm an atheis…

I can only imagine how deeply connected your spiritual upbringing would be to the trip experience. So many shamanistic traditions have guides that are there to teach you the lore to prime you so you understand/have the right experience.

Re: Psychedelics alter metaphysical beliefs

#175

Post by foxyv »

I get the impression that there is some moral lesson to come from this. Something about the non-existence of self and the impermanence of even our most deeply held beliefs.

This reminds me of "Waking Up" by Sam Harris where he talks about split brains, brain trauma, and other acute changes to people's personalities.

Re: Psychedelics alter metaphysical beliefs

#176

Post by klyrs »

eurasiantiger wrote: post #103
klyrs wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't help but keep rereading this. The statement "I've never done drugs" juxtaposed with "20 and 30 experiments" is kinda funny to me.

”Doing drugs” evokes images of injecting hard drugs with all the unclean nastiness. ”Experimenting with psychedelics” is really, really far from that reality.

Sorry, no. Drinking alcohol is "doing drugs." The imagery you're evoking is propaganda. Don't validate it.

Re: Psychedelics alter metaphysical beliefs

#177

Post by TremendousJudge »

fsh wrote: post #100
malermeister wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've tripped many times and none of what I saw was real, and everything I saw when I wasn't tripping was real. How would you possibly verify this claim? What is reality if not your perception of it? Does objective reality exist? How do you know anything is objectively real and not a product of some brain process? All of those are long-standing philosophical questions. Here's [1] a quick intro on the problem space I…

Ancient Greek philosophers could not measure anything, so this idea was at least somewhat plausible. Modern philosophers have no such excuse. We can simply measure the temperature of the water buckets and accept that our hands are very poor thermometers. Leaving aside the very difficult issue of the measurement problem in quantum mechanics, the last 200 or so years of science have clearly demonstrated that objective…

>We can simply measure

That "simply" is doing a lot of work there. Measurement is never simple, or correct. Yes, it's much, much more precise than it was in the past, but it's never exact. Until May 2019, the magnitude of many of the units composing the SI system of measurement, including most of those used in the measurement of electricity and light, were highly dependent upon the stability of a 142-year-old, golf-ball-sized cylinder of metal stored in a vault in France. The mass of this cylinder drifts when compared to copies, and nobody knows why. Yeah, the effect is super tiny, but the measurements are demonstrably _not precise_

Re: Psychedelics alter metaphysical beliefs

#178

Post by namlem »

tasty_freeze wrote: post #65

At the risk of being "that guy", it has to be said that this kind of study is unreliable. Posting a bunch of messages to r/drugs and r/psychedelics to come take their survey is going to suffer from all sorts of statistical biases. It is still better than the lowest for the study, the sample size of one: "Well this is what I experienced". Yet here I go. I have always been a materialist, and I've also never done drugs…

I think being familiar with the basics of the standard model of physics (very basic, I don't claim to know much at all) influences one's perception of the experience induced by psychedelics. I would say that I am still more or less a materialist, though with greater appreciation for the idea of panpsychism, but really what I believe is that these ideas are not in conflict. The ephemeral, empty nature of all things is very much in line with our modern understanding of physics. The Standard Model bears surprising resemblence to certain Zen Buddhist ideas.

Re: Psychedelics alter metaphysical beliefs

#179

Post by Der_Einzige »

fsh wrote: post #100
malermeister wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've tripped many times and none of what I saw was real, and everything I saw when I wasn't tripping was real. How would you possibly verify this claim? What is reality if not your perception of it? Does objective reality exist? How do you know anything is objectively real and not a product of some brain process? All of those are long-standing philosophical questions. Here's [1] a quick intro on the problem space I…

Ancient Greek philosophers could not measure anything, so this idea was at least somewhat plausible. Modern philosophers have no such excuse. We can simply measure the temperature of the water buckets and accept that our hands are very poor thermometers. Leaving aside the very difficult issue of the measurement problem in quantum mechanics, the last 200 or so years of science have clearly demonstrated that objective…

Oh really? So you mean things like the no-cloning theorem, no-copying theorem, the whole idea of quantum indeterminacy, and the fact that actual randomness exists gives you evidence for objective reality? Actually, it's exactly the opposite. A =/= A. Even if there was objective reality, it's not available to us.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-cloning_theorem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_indeterminacy

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell%27s_theorem

Re: Psychedelics alter metaphysical beliefs

#180

Post by scns »

leadingthenet wrote: post #137
r00fus wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine how powerful it would be to be able to alter the setting so bad trips depict hell and good trips depict heaven. Almost like they could be utilized in a way to provide a religious fervor for your adherents.

Isn't there some evidence to suggest earlier, pre-Christian European religions did sometimes make use of psychedelic substances in group rituals?

There are cave paintings, found all over the world, of humans with mushroom heads or covered in fungi fruiting bodies.
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