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20 year study of global wealth demolishes the myth of ‘trickle-down’

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291–300 of 444 posts

Re: 20 year study of global wealth demolishes the myth of ‘trickle-down’

#291
Well, if you're gonna have rich people that's gonna have to mean that those rich people have much more money than not-rich people. Otherwise, you can't have rich people as a special category- if everybody is rich then nobody is.

Then of course the more money you have as a society, the more money the rich people of your society will have. And if you have a large population, the difference between those who are rich and those who are not is gonna have to be very large just because there's so much more money to be divided between the necessarily few rich people (again: if many people have lots of money then you don't have a special class of "rich").

So to summarise, if you're gonna have a rich society, you're gonna have to have rich people who are much more rich than not-rich people.

Problem is, that's not about inequality, nor about the richess of socieities, but about amibition. You see, everyone wants to be rich. Translated: everyone wants to have more than almost everyone else. So everyone supports an economic system that supports rich people, and therefore, wealth inequality.

Which is funny because the vast majority of people who support that kind of system are necessarily going to have to be not-rich.

So in order for most people to be able to dream that, one day, they'll be filthy rich, most people have to spend their entire lives in relative (or absolute) poverty.

Funny old world, eh?

Re: 20 year study of global wealth demolishes the myth of ‘trickle-down’

#292

Speaking from a historical perspective. The East India company/ies pretty much won much of the world for Britain & Europe. Europe was neither wealthy nor technologically more advanced than India. But the Church with its christianising mission and doctrine of christian discovery allowed the pooling of resources. Concentration of wealth is important and the wealth did trickle down to other countries of Europe. A modern…

Speaking from a historical perspective, over the last 50 years or so, almost all productivity gains have gone to capital gains not salaries, i.e. it is only the rich benefiting from productivity gains. This is in stark contrast to the time before the 1980s [1,2].

[1] https://www.epi.org/productivity-pay-gap/ [2] https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/11/productivity-workforc...

Re: 20 year study of global wealth demolishes the myth of ‘trickle-down’

#293

I guess I’m not surprised that a bunch of folks who have made a career out of advising politicians on income inequality….discovered income inequality in their study. The two questions in my mind are: 1. Should we trust the government to spend the money more wisely than the folks who earned it? Or said another way, how do you combat the almost inevitable corruption you see with large government spending? 2. What will…

The question is more on whether you want to pay government to give you health care, police, fire protection, education, child care etc. Or would you want to pay somebody who primarily wants to profit from you. Who will look after your health better? The one profiting from your bad health or the one who looses money if your health is bad? For-profit health care profits from your bad health. Government loose money when your health is bad if they finance health care.

It is pretty easy to see the health outcomes. Americans have for-profit health care and they have some of the worst health outcomes in the western world. Scandinavians all have socialized health care and some of the best health outcomes.

There is no natural law that says government must be corrupt. Corruption varies immensely between countries. Nordic countries have some of the largest governments and lowest level of corruption.

But regardless, you don't necessarily need to reduce inequality through higher taxes. You can also push legislation benefitting regular people more: Stronger unions to give workers better bargaining power. Worker representation or corporate boards so they can better influence how companies are run. In Norway where I live, we have worker participation in company decision making as part of the constitution.

The idea that only shareholders should make decision about how a company is run is just a political decision. In Germanic countries there is a long tradition of seeing companies as part of a community and having a wider responsibility to that community beyond maximizing value for shareholders.

We have a choice. The way an economy operates and is optimized is a choice. It is not a law of nature.

Re: 20 year study of global wealth demolishes the myth of ‘trickle-down’

#294
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find this example very ironic, given that the reason an " ambitious motherfucker " can take a cheap commodity like insulin and make it a monopolized product is directly a result of government regulations. The very same government you want to take everyone money and believe will spend it wisely

That’s a specious argument. If the problem is that people are frequently running a red light, the root cause isn’t the fact that a traffic light exists.

That would depend on where you put the traffic light, and the operational state of the light...

an Unneeded, nonoperational light (which alot of regulations are) would be the root cause

Re: 20 year study of global wealth demolishes the myth of ‘trickle-down’

#295
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find this example very ironic, given that the reason an " ambitious motherfucker " can take a cheap commodity like insulin and make it a monopolized product is directly a result of government regulations. The very same government you want to take everyone money and believe will spend it wisely

I mean, you act like businesses are gonna spend the money better and not just pump up shareholder earnings... You know, like they do every time? This line of argument seems suspiciously pro-capital, like, are you personally benefiting from government disfunction?

It is pro-capitalism... I am pro-capitalism. I think capitalism is awesome

Sure business will do what they can to pump shareholder earning, the check on that is market competition. In this instance various government regulations , and laws prohibit or limit that competition that would emerge in a freerer market

Insulin in particular was part of a EO package that was going to open up competition (and lower prices), the EO package was rescinded by Biden

Re: 20 year study of global wealth demolishes the myth of ‘trickle-down’

#296
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cleverest people around have gone into finance to invent instruments that are ever more abstract, specifically to avoid tying finance to inconvenient, fallible things like… business. It all has to perform way better than anything tangible could hope to do, and this starves out the type of investing to which you refer. Newest example: crypto. Like burying capital in pure abstractions, except they pollute (which go…

Gold does pollute-but it’s probably a lot less polluting once it’s out of the ground. You make an excellent point about modern finance. Increasingly to me it seems modern finance should be considered for its affects on money supply and finance not dissimilar to actions of central banks and certain government spending. It’s probably gone unnoticed largely exactly because the corporate finance machinations are not anyw…

> Gold does pollute-but it’s probably a lot less polluting once it’s out of the ground.

How could you possibly think that? Most gold today is produced through hard rock mining, which involves either enormous pits or tunnels. Many tons of ore is crushed and processed with either cyanide or mercury to get a few grams of gold.

Re: 20 year study of global wealth demolishes the myth of ‘trickle-down’

#297
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your point is still wrong, because "productivity investments" are more likely to destroy jobs - certainly stable, well-paid jobs - than to create them. In a very obvious and mundane way, how often do people find that when someone leaves a job they're suddenly doing their own work and the work of the person who left? But without a pay rise? That's a productivity increase. It is very much not a "generated job." Add aut…

> government seed funding of computing in the 50s, which created completely new kinds of business activity. But only after the initial research was paid for by the public this is exactly my point - "food" (computing) wasn't available, and the gov't "handed out" lots of money to "the rich" (aka, seed funding) to perform this sort of research and development. The end result is that new "food" (computing) became availab…

> lots of money to "the rich" (aka, seed funding)

No, you're conflating two different things, targetted seed funding for r&d, and just giving money to wealthy people

Re: 20 year study of global wealth demolishes the myth of ‘trickle-down’

#298
post #174
post #10

Ahh, the good old trickle-down, aka "piss in my eyes and tell me it's raining" (which is the only way trickle-down actually works). It was pure mythology from the start; there's never been any basis for it to begin with. It's a pity we even have to debunk it like that. Go figure, give a million hungry people $20 each, and see $20M return to the economy the next day as they spend it on food. Give a billionaire $20M, s…

> Cue Pikachu face when the economy doesn't improve. It was never about the "economy". It has always been about pumping up the profit-generating machinery. It used to be that profit-generating machinery had real meatspace jobs backing it, and real machines and factories to feed. But now, given that machinery is now fully virtualized, first in the stock market, then in financial instruments, then tech, now in the unho…

You are right that it was never about "the economy".

It was merely a trope to market the new rules as somehow being beneficial to the general public who was about to be fleeced, so they didn't protest and riot and let it go through. No different from the Grinch's claim to Cindy Lou Who that he'd be fixing the tree and bring it back - just say anything to keep someone who sees they're being robbed from raising the alarm. Except with the real story here, the Grinch's heart only keeps shrinking.

Re: 20 year study of global wealth demolishes the myth of ‘trickle-down’

#299
post #85
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if I worked as a doctor for 20 years, invested most of my income in that 20 years in to dividend paying stocks, then at age 45 or so retire to live off my dividends that my hard work paid of, I did not earn any of that?

> I did not earn any of that? >> A doctor's wage is earned. Your wage is earned. > invested most of my income in that 20 years in to dividend paying stocks Whether that one is 'earned' is debatable. From a neoliberal economists perspective you probably 'earned' it by risking your income. Although I always have to chuckle a bit of someone says that speculation is 'investment'. Investment is buying machinery, investmen…

At its core companies sell stocks to buy machinery and other things to invest in their business.

>>You didn't work for it and - since you were able to put it aside for a later use - you didn't actually 'need' it. So from a moral and societal point of view, that money should have rather gone to pay for teachers wages

wow. just wow. So morally a person should only be paid what the need to live

that is your honest position.. If so I certainly hope people that think like you never attain any real power

Re: 20 year study of global wealth demolishes the myth of ‘trickle-down’

#300
The theory of trickle down does not suggest or imply that inequality will decrease. It suggests that allowing the entrepreneurs (eventual billionaires) to succeed will result in an overall increase in wealth throughout society. Using an inequality report to "debunk" it is to entirely miss the point.

You could note that, for instance, despite having a lower-than-average cost of living for the west(^1,2) and lower-than-average taxes for the west (^3,4), the US is top-five for both average wage (^5,6) and PPP-adjusted median income (^7,8). And despite what you may think, even adjusting for government transfers (e.g. healthcare) does not tilt the scale: the US boasts a #1 (or #3, depending on who you ask) PPP-adjusted disposable income (^9). These generally apply to medians too, so one cannot even fall back on skew to explain it away.

Meanwhile, when we speak of "inequality" and billionaires, China has above-average taxes (seems to be 25% across the board with no carve-out for capital gains), yet has far worse inequality than the US.

As with most things economic, reports like this can be crafted to fit whatever narrative you like. But if you are sitting in the US in 2021-- one of the wealthiest societies in human history-- and complaining about how bad capitalism or low taxes are, you're badly misinformed about the "normal" economic state of a human and where you sit. Here's a hint: it's probably in the 95th percentile across history and the 90th percentile today.

Sources:

Cost of Living

1. https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/rankings_by_country.js...

2. https://www.worlddata.info/cost-of-living.php

Taxes

3. https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/personal-income-ta...

4. https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=TABLE_I6

Average wage

5. https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/median-in...

6. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income

PPP-adjusted Median income

7. https://statisticstimes.com/economy/countries-by-gdp-capita-...

8. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_w...

PPP-adjusted Disposable household income

9. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_c...

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