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Crypto lobbying is going ballistic

economist.com

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Re: Crypto lobbying is going ballistic

#141

Post by wrinkl3 »

CynicusRex wrote: post #130
donatj wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> doing nothing of any practical value while greatly helping out with destroying our planet Serious question, where does this line of thinking end? Gaming rigs use upwards of a thousand watts, no practical value in gaming. Watching sitcoms on a television has no practical value. Phones capable of doing things other than making calls have no practical value, but we charge them all the time. Honestly I think providing…

>“Serious question, where does this line of thinking end?” It ends at the last pyramid scheme.

That line doesn't mean anything - should we make any type of computation that contributes to a pyramid scheme illegal? How do you even define a pyramid scheme in a way that doesn't also cover traditional financial institutions and academia?

Re: Crypto lobbying is going ballistic

#142

Post by CynicusRex »

History rhymes, therefore, one can predict the future. To quote myself:

Greed is the elephant in the room. Whether it's cash, gold, or an NFT of Elon Musk's flatulence, no matter the currency, as long as humans can't evolve beyond their greedy nature nothing will change. All bitcoin has done is strengthen this vice and make yet another group of rich people, who, as usual, will do anything to preserve and increase their wealth. For example Max Keiser ripping a ten dollar bill saying he will just buy politicians [21]. Or the next quote by some bitcoin millionaire on an online forum I used to frequent:

“I've always used Bitcoin as an insurance against corrupted governments by private companies. The tip is to move to a country where the government is corrupted by crypto holders! ... and you don't have to move to small island to do that. There is plenty of rich country doing so.” —Name-I-won't-mention, living in France, 2021.

That doesn't spell confidence nor competence for the next “elite”, does it. Neither did I for that matter. As soon as I felt being rich was within my grasp I began to think selfishly: “No way I'm giving any of this to governments.” Which is fine in truly oppressed countries. But if one inhabits a developed country, chances are that being able to afford crypto“currencies” to begin with is the result of the fortunate circumstances that you or your parents enjoyed because of, among other things, good governance. Whether your ego likes it or not, most success is due to luck [22][23]. In the end, governments aren't inherently bad, but the people in it can be. And if they can be corrupted by bitcoin then we are merely running uphill on the Titanic.

“Strong currencies are not the solution to poor governance. Good governance and democracy makes a country and its currency strong. Not vice versa.” —halukakin, HackerNews, 2021. —https://www.cynicusrex.com/file/cryptocultscience.html

Re: Crypto lobbying is going ballistic

#144

Post by tsimionescu »

roenxi wrote: post #33
voz_ wrote: post #4

I can't wait for this bubble to burst so I never have to hear about these tulips again.

Bitcoin have to be worth something in the same sense that a leaf of toilet paper isn't actually free - just very cheap. We don't know what the long term fair price of a bitcoin is and it isn't at all obvious that we are in a bubble. For all the naysayers and the evangelists, at this point it is clear that cryptocurrencies have staying power and the broader market (not going to pick out bitcoin specifically) seems lik…

> For all the naysayers and the evangelists, at this point it is clear that cryptocurrencies have staying power and the broader market (not going to pick out bitcoin specifically) seems likely outlive the US dollar. Decentralised protocols are more reliable than the US government.

By what logic do you expect a ~10 year old technology reliant on massive amounts of power in a global warming world, that only started seeing adoption ~5 years ago, will beat the US dollar's ~200 year old lifetime?

Not to mention, USD and the US are such a central part of all finance and technology worldwide that it's absurd to imagine Bitcoin would survive a collapse of the US government.

Re: Crypto lobbying is going ballistic

#145

Post by numair »

vanusa wrote: post #132
numair wrote: post #102

Since this seems to be yet another HN comment thread filled with people who feel really smart for dismissing the potential of cryptographic digital currencies and the emerging liquid market for these digital assets, I'll just copy and paste my thoughts (which I might end up having to do often, since these sort of crypto-hate-fests are now popping up on HN at a rate of several per day): > Money moves fast in the crypt…

That’s what capital productivity is all about. No, it's about investing money (and other resources) into endeavors that create actual goods and and services. The crypto world is (absent a few marginal use cases) almost entirely about derivatives and speculation - and of course money laundering and ransomware. That is to to say: the very opposite of the intrinsic purpose (to the extent that it has one) of capital. It’…

That is a very simplistic view of a large, rapidly evolving asset class. Your “few marginal use cases” will grow into the most important use cases of the entire economy — and no, we don’t yet know exactly what those are. Surely you understand how compounding growth works, right?

Re: Crypto lobbying is going ballistic

#146

Post by tsimionescu »

numair wrote: post #102

Since this seems to be yet another HN comment thread filled with people who feel really smart for dismissing the potential of cryptographic digital currencies and the emerging liquid market for these digital assets, I'll just copy and paste my thoughts (which I might end up having to do often, since these sort of crypto-hate-fests are now popping up on HN at a rate of several per day): > Money moves fast in the crypt…

> Money isn’t supposed to sit in a bank feeling “safe;” it’s supposed to be running around, acting young and risky, learning new things and creating new opportunities.

Money is supposed to go into Capex and Opex - those are proof that people are producing things. When money is put into a bank, or stock, or a Blockchain, the company who put it there is not doing anything useful with it. Sure, it's possible that someone lending, or selling shares, or selling crypto, is going to do something with that money, but those are already second-order effects. And of course, the ones on the other side of the transaction may well be putting it back again into banking, stocks, or crypto speculation - money spinning endlessly around, going nowhere.

Re: Crypto lobbying is going ballistic

#147

Post by numair »

tsimionescu wrote: post #146
numair wrote: post #102

Since this seems to be yet another HN comment thread filled with people who feel really smart for dismissing the potential of cryptographic digital currencies and the emerging liquid market for these digital assets, I'll just copy and paste my thoughts (which I might end up having to do often, since these sort of crypto-hate-fests are now popping up on HN at a rate of several per day): > Money moves fast in the crypt…

> Money isn’t supposed to sit in a bank feeling “safe;” it’s supposed to be running around, acting young and risky, learning new things and creating new opportunities. Money is supposed to go into Capex and Opex - those are proof that people are producing things. When money is put into a bank, or stock, or a Blockchain, the company who put it there is not doing anything useful with it. Sure, it's possible that someon…

Unless you have a birds’-eye view of the entire global economy and all uses of crypto in the market right now, there is no way you can make such a blanket statement with such certainty.

Re: Crypto lobbying is going ballistic

#148

Post by numair »

Gys wrote: post #110
numair wrote: post #102

Since this seems to be yet another HN comment thread filled with people who feel really smart for dismissing the potential of cryptographic digital currencies and the emerging liquid market for these digital assets, I'll just copy and paste my thoughts (which I might end up having to do often, since these sort of crypto-hate-fests are now popping up on HN at a rate of several per day): > Money moves fast in the crypt…

> Money isn’t supposed to sit in a bank feeling “safe;” it’s supposed to be running around, acting young and risky, learning new things and creating new opportunities. But how is this different for crypto currencies compared to fiat currencies? From what I understand by far most crypto capital does not move at all?

Quite the opposite. Check the moves on the exchanges, and you’ll see that the velocity of capital is truly unmatched. This is exactly why lots of very serious asset managers and quant shops have jumped in — crypto is becoming the major leagues, and making TradFi look like a minor league game, scary-fast.

Re: Crypto lobbying is going ballistic

#149

Post by lui8906 »

loup-vaillant wrote: post #106
gambiting wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there's a fundamental issue here that prevents us from reaching an understanding. ANYTHING can be used as money. The systems that we currently have in place have lots of big problems, but "we" decided to use them and that's why they are popular. We could also decide to use a cryptocurrency as money, and it would be equally valid, and it would become our "money" - that bit is fine and I'm not arguing with it.…

> The second this changes, and we have a cryptocurrency that is actually used as money and not a plaything, I'll happily stop complaining about it. I won't: we still have proof-of-work to get rid of (and generally, the unreasonable energy consumption and chip usage).

Is there any other unreasonable use of energy consumption than proof of work? Solana (using proof of stake) uses similar energy as hosting a website. If this tiny energy usage is also problematic then we would need to start also shaming people for uploading Youtube videos or scrolling through Instagram.

Re: Crypto lobbying is going ballistic

#150

Post by xiphias2 »

MilaM wrote: post #123
xiphias2 wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Adoption rate at this point is about 0.5%. I guess things will start to change here on HN at 10% global adoption rate (5 more years)

Adoption as what? To do anything useful with Crypto you still need to change it to a real currency on a bank account.

I just bought 3 plane tickets with Bitcoin yesterday on cheapair.com. Just because it's not used by everybody, it can be useful for some people. Bitcoin has never failed me while travelling.
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