If anyone is interested in further reading on this topic, or on evolution/origin of life in general, I highly recommend "The Logic of Chance" by Eugene Koonin. The book pieces together the latest knowledge from all the major fields of biology (genetics/bioinformatics, structural/physics, etc), math, physics, and philosophy in a way I've never seen done before. It interrogates virtually every hypothesis of the origin…
You and I were probably the only folks who recommended this book in HN history so hi! Totally agreed that this is required reading for anyone interested in learning about modern science on evolution (as opposed to the Dawkins drivel)
The RNA World Hypothesis
21–30 of 44 posts
Re: The RNA World Hypothesis
#22If anyone is interested in further reading on this topic, or on evolution/origin of life in general, I highly recommend "The Logic of Chance" by Eugene Koonin. The book pieces together the latest knowledge from all the major fields of biology (genetics/bioinformatics, structural/physics, etc), math, physics, and philosophy in a way I've never seen done before. It interrogates virtually every hypothesis of the origin…
I was surprised that Google's price is so much lower than Amazon's though? Less than a half? (Might be locale-dependent, I'm in Poland). It has been long since I bought anything on Google, but I assume it can still be converted to a DRM-free epub like described here?: https://www.reddit.com/r/kindle/comments/3menci/i_prefer_my_...
Where's the catch?
Re: The RNA World Hypothesis
#23Re: The RNA World Hypothesis
#24I have no doubt that our life originally evolved from an RNA world. I’m just not convinced the world is earth. This shit could not have happened so fast (few tens or hundreds of million years?) the moment it became conducive on earth. It must have flown in as archea from elsewhere! Also anyone who’s worked in a lab trying to keep some Lb plates sterile would immediately see how difficult it would be to keep an earth…
It didn't happen that fast. The earliest direct evidence, (as in: fossils) for life on earth are 3.465 BILLION years old.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earliest_known_life_forms
>Also anyone who’s worked in a lab trying to keep some Lb plates sterile would immediately see how difficult it would be to keep an earth sized Lb plate sterile if the galaxy has a ton of life harboring planets.
The earths diameter is 12742 km.
A petri-dish is usually about 12 cm in diameter.
The closest star system (Alpha Centaury) is 9461000000000 km away (4.35 LY).
So the closest place in the galaxy where there is even sufficient mass for conditions to form life, is ~2970020405 earth-diameters from here.
Two petri dishes on opposite sides of the planet are ~106183333 petri-dish-diameters away from each other.
So purely from a perspective of distance, the chance that two petri-dishes on opposite sides of the planet transmit life between them, is an order of magnitude HIGHER than life coming to earth from outer space.
Re: The RNA World Hypothesis
#25I find it funny that the comments here split across: “I have no doubt that life emerged from an RNA first world” and “I have no doubt that life emerged from a metabolism first world” Last I checked, nobody should have absolute certainty for how life began. Progress comes from skepticism. Have more doubt!
Re: The RNA World Hypothesis
#26I find it funny that the comments here split across: “I have no doubt that life emerged from an RNA first world” and “I have no doubt that life emerged from a metabolism first world” Last I checked, nobody should have absolute certainty for how life began. Progress comes from skepticism. Have more doubt!
Re: The RNA World Hypothesis
#27If anyone is interested in further reading on this topic, or on evolution/origin of life in general, I highly recommend "The Logic of Chance" by Eugene Koonin. The book pieces together the latest knowledge from all the major fields of biology (genetics/bioinformatics, structural/physics, etc), math, physics, and philosophy in a way I've never seen done before. It interrogates virtually every hypothesis of the origin…
About virology, there is no doubt that the first RNA molecule was a virus. All the popular presentations about the "RNA world" are either incomplete and/or logically inconsistent. There certainly was a RNA world, in the sense of a world where there was no DNA, but only RNA. However, there must have existed 2 stages of the RNA world, the later stage, when protein synthesis based on translation from RNA existed, like t…
And in this stage, where there is no DNA, what molecule carried the genetic information of these host organisms?
>Because any memory molecule, like RNA, needs an already existing living being for its first replication
No, it doesn't. RNA is capable of folding into complex catalytic machineries same as polypeptide chains (aka. proteins). An RNA synthetase itself composed of RNA is absolutely probable.
Re: The RNA World Hypothesis
#28Earlier quoted context omitted.
About virology, there is no doubt that the first RNA molecule was a virus. All the popular presentations about the "RNA world" are either incomplete and/or logically inconsistent. There certainly was a RNA world, in the sense of a world where there was no DNA, but only RNA. However, there must have existed 2 stages of the RNA world, the later stage, when protein synthesis based on translation from RNA existed, like t…
>and also an earlier stage, when only RNA replication existed, but RNA did not perform any useful function for its host living being, but it was only a virus that was replicated using energy and molecular components from its host. And in this stage, where there is no DNA, what molecule carried the genetic information of these host organisms? >Because any memory molecule, like RNA, needs an already existing living bei…
The difference between a living being with genetic information and a living being without genetic information is the same as between a processor with micro-programmed control and a processor with hard-wired control.
In a processor with micro-programmed control, it is easy to add new instructions or to replace the instructions that it can execute with others having a completely different behavior, just by changing the content of the control memory.
In a processor with hard-wired control, you might be able to change the interconnections between blocks or to replace some logical gates with other kinds of logical gates, but the chances that these changes will result in a new processor that will still function and do something useful are minuscule.
Genetic information is necessary for the evolution of simple self-reproducing living beings to the complex living beings that exist today, but it is not necessary for life, i.e. for growth and reproduction of complex molecules.
It is fortunate that this is true, because otherwise there would have not been any path from inanimate matter to memory molecules like RNA, because they cannot continue to exist without being replicated from the template of an already existing memory molecule, so they cannot have any other function earlier than the first replication begins to produce them, and the replication cannot appear before the monomers, e.g. ATP, are available.
About the RNA synthetase, that is just a catalyst.
It cannot produce any RNA without the monomers (nucleotides) and without energy, i.e. a dehydrating agent like ATP, which must extract the water from the monomers, to condense them in the RNA polymer.
In the first living beings that used ATP and the other nucleotides to perform condensation reactions, the reactions were not controlled as well as today, so there were many parasite reactions that consumed a part of the reactants instead of producing the desirable end products. So some of the ATP molecules must have condensed with themselves and with other nucleotides, instead of producing useful polymers.
From these ATP condensation side-reactions, some kind of RNA synthetase must have been produced by chance and then it began to replicate itself. However that was possible only because ATP and nucleotides produced continuously by the host metabolism were available. Without monomers, the RNA synthetase would not have been able to do anything.
Re: The RNA World Hypothesis
#29Earlier quoted context omitted.
>and also an earlier stage, when only RNA replication existed, but RNA did not perform any useful function for its host living being, but it was only a virus that was replicated using energy and molecular components from its host. And in this stage, where there is no DNA, what molecule carried the genetic information of these host organisms? >Because any memory molecule, like RNA, needs an already existing living bei…
As I have already said, there is no need for genetic information in a living being able to grow and reproduce. The difference between a living being with genetic information and a living being without genetic information is the same as between a processor with micro-programmed control and a processor with hard-wired control. In a processor with micro-programmed control, it is easy to add new instructions or to replac…
Yes there is, because one of the principles that define life is the ability to "pass traits onto offspring". This isn't possible without a medium to carry that information.
Self replicating systems do not require information. Self replicating systems that are "alive" by any definiton in the scientific literature, do.
>It cannot produce any RNA without the monomers (nucleotides) and without energy, i.e. a dehydrating agent like ATP
In the same way RNA folds could catalyse RNA synthesis, other folding patterns could break down energy-rich compounds and generate nucleotides.
The one thing they need for this to work, is an enclosed reaction environment, aka a lipid-vesicle, which form spotaneously as long as there are fatty acids.
So no, the RNA world does NOT require some form of non-genetic-host-organisms. Folded RNA molecules within lipid vesicles are likely the earliest form of organised life.
Re: The RNA World Hypothesis
#30If anyone is interested in further reading on this topic, or on evolution/origin of life in general, I highly recommend "The Logic of Chance" by Eugene Koonin. The book pieces together the latest knowledge from all the major fields of biology (genetics/bioinformatics, structural/physics, etc), math, physics, and philosophy in a way I've never seen done before. It interrogates virtually every hypothesis of the origin…
I've looked on Google Books' preview and it reads quite smoothly. I was surprised that Google's price is so much lower than Amazon's though? Less than a half? (Might be locale-dependent, I'm in Poland). It has been long since I bought anything on Google, but I assume it can still be converted to a DRM-free epub like described here?: https://www.reddit.com/r/kindle/comments/3menci/i_prefer_my_... Where's the catch?