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Psychedelics alter metaphysical beliefs

nature.com

21–30 of 258 posts

Re: Psychedelics alter metaphysical beliefs

#21
post #16

The overall result does not surprise me, but two things in particular did: 1. That materialism is much less popular than I expected. I wonder how much is due to selection bias. 2. That idealism didn't enjoy a bigger bump than it did. I predict that dose size would correlate with increase in idealist views, as larger doses are more frequently nondual, and nondual experiences tend to inspire idealist beliefs. I myself…

> That materialism is much less popular than I expected. I wonder how much is due to selection bias The overwhelming majority of human beings both now and historically are dualists, so this isn't surprising to me at all. Materialists always lose me when they start trying to explain things like how exactly inanimate matter started thinking. I've never seen any recourse other than handwaving of the highest order. Usual…

> Materialists always lose me when they start trying to explain things like how exactly inanimate matter started thinking. I've never seen any recourse other than handwaving of the highest order. Usually it's something along the lines of emergent behavior, but no mechanism is ever given for how or why said emergence occurs

This seems pretty bad faith, I'd imagine you're getting lost for other reasons.

For one, inanimate matter probably needs to be animate before it can think.

Secondly, perhaps the difficulty in explaining the mechanism comes from the fact that materialists are honest about the uncertainties of this (extremely difficult) problem and are burdened with an epistemology that requires evidence from the actual world, unlike other approaches.

Re: Psychedelics alter metaphysical beliefs

#22
post #16

The overall result does not surprise me, but two things in particular did: 1. That materialism is much less popular than I expected. I wonder how much is due to selection bias. 2. That idealism didn't enjoy a bigger bump than it did. I predict that dose size would correlate with increase in idealist views, as larger doses are more frequently nondual, and nondual experiences tend to inspire idealist beliefs. I myself…

> That materialism is much less popular than I expected. I wonder how much is due to selection bias The overwhelming majority of human beings both now and historically are dualists, so this isn't surprising to me at all. Materialists always lose me when they start trying to explain things like how exactly inanimate matter started thinking. I've never seen any recourse other than handwaving of the highest order. Usual…

There is no "mechanism for how [ ... ] emergence occurs". Emergence is the mechanism. This is even more true of qualia, which are definitionally subjective, and thus do not exist as phenomena in the world.

We could talk a bit about the mechanism behind the process where aggregating sufficient water molecules creates a liquid. But we can't talk at all about how that same process could ever be responsible for the experience of "wet", because the experience of wet is wholly subjective.

Similarly, even if we were to be able to fully describe the materialist processes taking place in a system that has qualia, nothing in the description can ever explain the experience of having experiences, beyond saying "well look here - see all this stuff going on? that's how qualia are possible", which is not tautological, but not a mechanism for qualia.

Speaking of "thinking" more generally is even worse than focusing on qualia. It's not hard to agree on what qualia are - that it is like something to be something, in Nagel's words - but agreeing on what would count as "thinking" and what wouldn't is not likely to see any agreement at all.

Re: Psychedelics alter metaphysical beliefs

#23

Despite having had the relevant experience, I've always found it hard to understand why this happens. You know you're taking a drug that reliably induces feelings of "oceanic connectedness". Why should you change your worldview as a result? All kinds of things can change the way you feel temporarily, but most of them don't leave you thinking that you got insight into the way things really are. Maybe it's that psyched…

Not only that, but the fact that consuming a chemical can make your consciousness feel so different always felt to me like pretty good evidence that consciousness is material. I do think there are rational realizations that rational people can come to under the influence of psychedelics, that they might not otherwise, though.

Why do you believe in rational people?

Re: Psychedelics alter metaphysical beliefs

#24

Despite having had the relevant experience, I've always found it hard to understand why this happens. You know you're taking a drug that reliably induces feelings of "oceanic connectedness". Why should you change your worldview as a result? All kinds of things can change the way you feel temporarily, but most of them don't leave you thinking that you got insight into the way things really are. Maybe it's that psyched…

Not only that, but the fact that consuming a chemical can make your consciousness feel so different always felt to me like pretty good evidence that consciousness is material. I do think there are rational realizations that rational people can come to under the influence of psychedelics, that they might not otherwise, though.

I'm not sure I see why. Dreams tend to be unstable, but if a dream were particularly stable, and a certain behavior in the dream reliably triggered a certain insight (say, a dream sign that triggered lucidity), would that be evidence that consciousness was produced by the "material" in the dream?

In the same way, if this is a dream of sorts, the fact that certain dream behaviors can trigger certain changes in experience is also internally consistent. Of course, this "dream" has much greater stability to it, but the basic idea holds.

Re: Psychedelics alter metaphysical beliefs

#26

Despite having had the relevant experience, I've always found it hard to understand why this happens. You know you're taking a drug that reliably induces feelings of "oceanic connectedness". Why should you change your worldview as a result? All kinds of things can change the way you feel temporarily, but most of them don't leave you thinking that you got insight into the way things really are. Maybe it's that psyched…

I believe it's because it shows you that reality is not actually real. It's just a product of your senses.

During a psychedelic trip, one might wonder "if I had been like this all my life, I would consider this to be reality, not what I'm used too".

It fundamentally shows you that what you consider reality might be very, very, very wrong. So how can I trust my own senses and perceptions if they can be so powerfully modified by such a simple molecule? What if the actual reality is what you experience during a trip, and what we consider reality is some kind of trip due to the lack of a molecule that allows you to fully experience reality(in the same way that the lack of nutrients and water can lead to mental confusion/delirium)? It opens up a world of possibilities.

Re: Psychedelics alter metaphysical beliefs

#27

Despite having had the relevant experience, I've always found it hard to understand why this happens. You know you're taking a drug that reliably induces feelings of "oceanic connectedness". Why should you change your worldview as a result? All kinds of things can change the way you feel temporarily, but most of them don't leave you thinking that you got insight into the way things really are. Maybe it's that psyched…

Try getting there without the drugs, it's not difficult. It might require a weekend workshop or two, but it's quite doable.

Of course, this will also open up new horizons for doubt, too. Ymmv.

Re: Psychedelics alter metaphysical beliefs

#28
Firstly, it's based on an online survey,so take that however you want... i can't say that i can take it very highly.

Secondly...I don't think beliefs(as in the proper sense) themselves are that easily altered by psychedelics.Psychedelics can and more often than not do induce a very profound spiritual & metaphysical experience, but beliefs are deeper than that,more glued to the "gut" & unconscious: they're constructed in combination to previous experiences usually not by the "self".I guess this study's conclusion comes as a result of the fact that spirituality and belief is still probably at the lowest levels in the west.Thus you have such "conclusions" where people think they believe in something in a spiritual and metaphysical manner just because of stronger trips.From what i recall upon studying this subject, granted about 10 years ago(though that was still when the biggest boom of research about brain & cognition happened), belief is even deeper than cognition, so that's why i'm reluctant to this theory: i think it's universally true that we're aware when we take psychedelics, it affects our unconscious as far as in the cognition we do during the trip triggers it mainly as a way to either glue memories or as a defense mechanism.

Then again i'm probably in the minority to say that belief is in big part mostly unconscious,and predates cognition in the "traditional" sense: i.e thoughts of the usual self. I base this on the fact that memory "indexing & glueing" happens unconsciously, and also that for me anecdotally psychedelics (and very rarely nootropics) usually either reinforced a belief or completed a belief through a new experience.

Re: Psychedelics alter metaphysical beliefs

#29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

sometimes, you can build different walls

and sometimes, when the walls came down, so did the roof, which ripped out the electrical supply, destroyed the plumbing and ruined all the floors. you don't have a house anymore, just a pile of disorganized raw material and you realize you don't know anything about house construction.

That was intense.

Re: Psychedelics alter metaphysical beliefs

#30

I used to be a pretty frequent psychedelic user. These results sound right to me. I would've considered panpsychism to be totally absurd before I discovered LSD, for instance. Now it's my daily driver.

Can you elaborate on panpsychism being your daily driver? Wikipedia article suggests it has something to do with minds being present throughout the universe. Are we talking animals? Rocks? Everything? Computers?

This might sound strangely obvious, but some report that somehow they obtain much deeper insight into motivations and intent of others.

a different, fresh point of view, a heightened sense of empathy?

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