Over 200 newspapers now involved in lawsuits vs. Google, Facebook • Hacker News Board

Re: Over 200 newspapers now involved in lawsuits vs. Google, Facebook

#161

Post by egypturnash » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 12:25 AM UTC

alex_young wrote: post #88

gerash wrote: post #47

The most important factor is that on the internet local news media lose their geographical monopoly. So everyone can subscribe to NYT or WSJ no matter where they live. This effectively creates a winner takes all situation like in many other industries which get closer to a free market. Add to that the fact that classified ads have been taken over by likes of ebay, LinkedIn, craigslist, etc. Basically the business mod…

> ...local news media lose their geographical monopoly I realize what you're saying, but really, local news will always have a geographical monopoly. Can the NYTimes or WSJ even think about covering local issues? How will investigative reporting function for say a local office holder or a local environmental problem? To my knowledge the real problem is that the traditional business model supporting reporting has drie…

I just wanna know where the hell local ads are any more, lately it really strikes me how much a megacorporate desert the ads on streaming services are are - where's the low-budget ads for the local mattress discount outlet with the owner dressing up in a goofy costume, where's the furniture chain with a jingle the owner's daughter (who is now the current owner) sang when she was six, where's the spots for local events, where's the local SPCA showing me cute shelter cats, all of that stuff? Those used to be scattered amongst the spots for global corporations. Now they're gone.

Re: Over 200 newspapers now involved in lawsuits vs. Google, Facebook

#162

Post by onenightnine » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 12:42 AM UTC

gerash wrote: post #47

The most important factor is that on the internet local news media lose their geographical monopoly. So everyone can subscribe to NYT or WSJ no matter where they live. This effectively creates a winner takes all situation like in many other industries which get closer to a free market. Add to that the fact that classified ads have been taken over by likes of ebay, LinkedIn, craigslist, etc. Basically the business mod…

old school media feels like its on its way out. which happens right? new ways of consuming content will almost always take a longer mind share than previous technology if the newer technology offers added value.

like radio is big, but before tv ad def before streaming it was king, now it is just something you listen to when you don't have internet access or are trying to listen to a certain show that is only found on the radio (very rare this days considering most radio broadcast can be streamed these days anyways).

a smart move would be to eventually move all broadcast online, like have backup communications (analog) for emergency situations but at this point it is almost a waste of bandwidth broadcasting local tv and radio channels. if that spectrum was reclaimed by internet providers we could fix the remote areas where internet is scarce, something we has seen is a must considering how many people are still doing remote learning because of the pandemic.

anyways that was a bunny trail, newspapers are great but realistically they waste a lot of paper and online is good enough, most people do not flip through newspapers anymore, it just a waste of resources in all actuality. i get why big media is kicking and screaming, but one could argue that its better to evolve than do business as usual.

if you are like me, we knew this was coming, we were the geeky people into technology when others were saying "what's the internet gonna be good for anyways?" we were in chat rooms building bots and talking to people from new york to people in uni in amsterdam, tokyo, auckland etc. they had an opportunity to listen and evolve with the times, not sticking up for google and facebook but there was def an opportunity for old school media to embrace a new model and they dragged their feet.

"stop slipping on pimpin'" is a street term similar to, "you snooze, you loose"

Re: Over 200 newspapers now involved in lawsuits vs. Google, Facebook

#163

Post by jart » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 1:08 AM UTC

jdavis703 wrote: post #130

jccalhoun wrote: post #78

I have long said the problem with paying for news is that it is rarely worth paying for. When I was in grad school there was a program that gave us "free" copies of the NYTimes and USA Today (I'm sure part of our tuition paid for it but all we had to do was swipe our student id to open the newspaper box). I would get them every day and there were rarely more than one story in them that I would actually read.

USA Today is deliberately written at a 10th grade reading level, so it’s doubtful how relevant it is for university students. But if you found only one relevant article in the NY Times then either you were consuming radio/TV news, or just don’t care about current events. Which is fine, it just means you weren’t the target audience.

Is there a higher reading level than tenth grade? What's the point in using plain language if you're not going to speak plainly when you can switch to a programming language or math?

Re: Over 200 newspapers now involved in lawsuits vs. Google, Facebook

#164

Post by dredmorbius » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 1:47 AM UTC

kragen wrote: post #73

This was predicted in the EPIC 2014 video in 02004. If you haven't seen it, it's a very thought-provoking look at the future of news. The original requires Flash, of course. It got a few things wrong. It doesn't mention filter bubbles and algorithmic radicalization, for instance.

You've mentioned this before, here:[1]

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5549627 (2013)

There you link to writing of your own from 1997, "Real News":

http://www.canonical.org/~kragen/real-news.html

A book that explores some of these concepts (in terms of the Net's impact on traditional news media) is Andrew L. Shapiro's book The Control Revolution (1999).[2]

What numerous prognosticators (yourself, Epic, Shapiro, and more) got right was that the traditional print media would be profoundly disrupted. What seems to have been broadly missed was that digital, algorithmic media would allow for individual targeting and manipulation, if not by the publishers or platforms themselves then by those who exploited them, either in partnership or as hostile attackers.

________________________________

Notes:

1. Not stalking, honest! I was looking for this particular comment to come back and respond to it.

2. Not to be confused with James Beniger's similarly-titled 1986 book. Shapiro does reference it, both are well worth reading. Shapiro's is far more politically-conscious.

Shapiro's: https://www.worldcat.org/title/control-revolution-how-the-in...

Beniger's: https://www.worldcat.org/title/ltltthegtgt-control-revolutio...

Re: Over 200 newspapers now involved in lawsuits vs. Google, Facebook

#165

Post by dredmorbius » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 1:48 AM UTC

kragen wrote: post #141

namdnay wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ohhhh was that the one with “Googlezon”? I remember that video doing the rounds

Yup. And although that particular merger hasn't happened, it correctly predicted the trend toward consolidation.

Consolidation is what capital does.

Re: Over 200 newspapers now involved in lawsuits vs. Google, Facebook

#166

Post by harles » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 1:50 AM UTC

KarlKemp wrote: post #120

harles wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless it’s more of a horse dewormer for democracy, which I fear a lot of media is headed towards.

The cynicism "the media" gets is entirely boring and mostly wrong. If you read one of WSJ/NYT/WashPo and never get near youtube, you will be well informed. But the actual problem with your statement is that it implies some alternative to "the media", and/or that it's said as if the world without the news media is somehow similar to the one we currently life in. There isn't and it wouldn't: a democracy is a regulatory…

Even among previously respected outlets, there’s a trend towards more clickbait style stories. It feels like a response to losing ad revenue to social media and search which is unfortunate. Things like The Wirecutter have definitely lessened the whole outlet to me.

Re: Over 200 newspapers now involved in lawsuits vs. Google, Facebook

#167

Post by freediver » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 2:06 AM UTC

PeterisP wrote: post #155

freediver wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hm I think we have a misunderstanding. Who said that a news company has to be publicly traded multi-billion dollar media corporation? My local newspaper is a news company. It can not effectively be replaced by someone on substack, let alone a news company with aspirations of more than local news coverage. Substack is OK for opinion, not news. That was my whole argument.

Why exactly can't your local news company be replaced by "someone on substack"? If the individual reporters who currently work for that company would quit and host the same reporting on substack (either as a team or individually), what would be the major difference to the user?

For starters, an individual can not be at two different places at the same time to report (for example about a fire and a football game happening at the same time). If they report about both tomorrow, then it is not news anymore.

Also an individual may not have the same knowledge or understanding to report about science, sports, education, economy or crime with same quality.

If you propose multiple individuals forming an organization and using substack as a platform, that is fine, you just replaced paper or a website with substack, so the platofrm changes but they would still be running a news organization/news company.

Re: Over 200 newspapers now involved in lawsuits vs. Google, Facebook

#168

Post by PeterisP » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 2:23 AM UTC

freediver wrote: post #167

PeterisP wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why exactly can't your local news company be replaced by "someone on substack"? If the individual reporters who currently work for that company would quit and host the same reporting on substack (either as a team or individually), what would be the major difference to the user?

For starters, an individual can not be at two different places at the same time to report (for example about a fire and a football game happening at the same time). If they report about both tomorrow, then it is not news anymore. Also an individual may not have the same knowledge or understanding to report about science, sports, education, economy or crime with same quality. If you propose multiple individuals formin…

I consider the reporters as just a part of a local newspaper (IMHO less than half of people working on it), so them moving to substack and abandoning all the non-local-news functions of the local newspaper (syndicated 'external' news, advertising, printing, etc) results in a substantially different kind of news organization than the local newspaper was, not just the same thing on a different distribution channel. It would effectively mean the death of the local news company as a concept, as the replacement is something quite different with a rather different business model, incentives and thus perspective.

Re: Over 200 newspapers now involved in lawsuits vs. Google, Facebook

#169

Post by jdavis703 » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 2:47 AM UTC

jart wrote: post #163

jdavis703 wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

USA Today is deliberately written at a 10th grade reading level, so it’s doubtful how relevant it is for university students. But if you found only one relevant article in the NY Times then either you were consuming radio/TV news, or just don’t care about current events. Which is fine, it just means you weren’t the target audience.

Is there a higher reading level than tenth grade? What's the point in using plain language if you're not going to speak plainly when you can switch to a programming language or math?

Yes, if I’m reading an English-language paper I want them to use the proper language. Don’t explain to me what “budget reconciliation” is, just write “budget reconciliation.” On the off chance there’s a word or phrase I don’t know, I can look it up.

Re: Over 200 newspapers now involved in lawsuits vs. Google, Facebook

#170

Post by gaws » Wed, Dec 08, 2021, 3:17 AM UTC

egypturnash wrote: post #161

alex_young wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...local news media lose their geographical monopoly I realize what you're saying, but really, local news will always have a geographical monopoly. Can the NYTimes or WSJ even think about covering local issues? How will investigative reporting function for say a local office holder or a local environmental problem? To my knowledge the real problem is that the traditional business model supporting reporting has drie…

I just wanna know where the hell local ads are any more, lately it really strikes me how much a megacorporate desert the ads on streaming services are are - where's the low-budget ads for the local mattress discount outlet with the owner dressing up in a goofy costume, where's the furniture chain with a jingle the owner's daughter (who is now the current owner) sang when she was six, where's the spots for local event…

> Now they're gone.

No. They all go to Facebook and Google.