Over 200 newspapers now involved in lawsuits vs. Google, Facebook • Hacker News Board

Re: Over 200 newspapers now involved in lawsuits vs. Google, Facebook

#61

Post by athenot » Tue, Dec 07, 2021, 7:56 PM UTC

giarc wrote: post #55

gerash wrote: post #47

The most important factor is that on the internet local news media lose their geographical monopoly. So everyone can subscribe to NYT or WSJ no matter where they live. This effectively creates a winner takes all situation like in many other industries which get closer to a free market. Add to that the fact that classified ads have been taken over by likes of ebay, LinkedIn, craigslist, etc. Basically the business mod…

Hasn't that always been the case? Even before the internet, I remember seeing copies of the NYT or WSJ on newsstands everywhere. I believe you could subscribe and it would get delivered to your door.

I receive the NYT on my doorstep on weekends and my copies say "Printed in Georgia". The content does not vary, though.

Re: Over 200 newspapers now involved in lawsuits vs. Google, Facebook

#62

Post by babypuncher » Tue, Dec 07, 2021, 7:56 PM UTC

annexrichmond wrote: post #32

freediver wrote: post #4

Newspapers allowed Google and Facebook to drag them to their territory of online ad-monetized business models in which they have no way of competing (because of tech discrepancy). This then led to deterioration of journalism and its inevitable transformation into sensationalism and entertainment, again driven by the incentives of the ad-monetized business model, because clickbait makes more ad money. It is a sad stat…

I'd love a subscription service that gives me access to all my local news sources

My idea has been to build a centralized subscription service, somewhat like Apple News, but structured differently.

You buy a monthly subscription that grants you credits each month. You can allocate those credits to whichever news sources you want, and for that month you get unlimited access to your chosen outlets.

Re: Over 200 newspapers now involved in lawsuits vs. Google, Facebook

#63

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Dec 07, 2021, 7:57 PM UTC

freediver wrote: post #43

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Subscriptions were always a pittance. It's not that they were a pittance, it's that they were eaten by the cost of printing and distribution. But the internet doesn't have that. The problem was the chronology of how this happened. Newspapers had paid print subscribers and advertisers and were profitable. Then the advertisers were eaten by eBay and Craigslist, so they went into the red. But their paid subscribers we…

I mostly agree with your assessment apart from this part: > Without that need, you end up with individuals doing reporting on substack. Content that is produced on substack is opinion, not news. It is produced from a comfort of a chair, not from a war zone or a hurricane zone. Nothing wrong with that (if opinion is what you are after), but you actually need to have a news organization to produce news coverage. A sing…

[deleted]

Re: Over 200 newspapers now involved in lawsuits vs. Google, Facebook

#64

Post by freediver » Tue, Dec 07, 2021, 7:59 PM UTC

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #51

freediver wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mostly agree with your assessment apart from this part: > Without that need, you end up with individuals doing reporting on substack. Content that is produced on substack is opinion, not news. It is produced from a comfort of a chair, not from a war zone or a hurricane zone. Nothing wrong with that (if opinion is what you are after), but you actually need to have a news organization to produce news coverage. A sing…

> A single person can not do it in a professional and repeatable way. Putting aside whether this is even true, there is no requirement for a substack to always be exactly one individual, or for that individual to be unable to hire a third party proof reader or fact checker. That still doesn't require a billion dollar media corporation. There is also no requirement for it to be opinion rather than factual reporting. M…

You just defined a news company.

Re: Over 200 newspapers now involved in lawsuits vs. Google, Facebook

#65

Post by mindslight » Tue, Dec 07, 2021, 7:59 PM UTC

Gunax wrote: post #42

mindslight wrote: post #5

First, there's no mention of the legal theory under which they're claiming damages. Is this something to do with caching, aggregation, AMP, or what? The only thing the article touches on is Google being a monopoly for ads, but that would seem to be a very small part of how Google contributed to undermining the news industry. Also even if these newspapers are successful, does anyone foresee any of the damages actually…

My guess/gut is this is a legal theory/stretch and it's unlikely to work. But my understanding of anti trust law is it's always running into new situations that need to be adapted to. Even anti trust law itself was new/controversial at one point, and the concept of forcing or breaking apart private businesses was novel.

IMO all this talk of "antitrust" with regards to big tech is a red herring. At best, it will just facilitate the synergy of government and corporate power, through a "do this or else" cudgel.

What we need is strong privacy legislation (ala GDPR) so that we can actually opt out of being data subjects, and mandated interoperability (through open protocols and published APIs) such that companies have to compete for each user's business rather than just abusing Metcalfe's law.

That legislators don't understand this feels like it's because they don't want to understand this. They see a growing power and their focus is on how they themselves can control that power, rather than how to prevent it for the benefit of all (ie preserve freedom).

Re: Over 200 newspapers now involved in lawsuits vs. Google, Facebook

#66

Post by KorematsuFredt » Tue, Dec 07, 2021, 7:59 PM UTC

freediver wrote: post #4

Newspapers allowed Google and Facebook to drag them to their territory of online ad-monetized business models in which they have no way of competing (because of tech discrepancy). This then led to deterioration of journalism and its inevitable transformation into sensationalism and entertainment, again driven by the incentives of the ad-monetized business model, because clickbait makes more ad money. It is a sad stat…

> Own it up, create credible news products, and monetize it like news were monetized for hundreds of years - you pay to read it.

Yes. Online adverts did not break journalism. The news media houses did this to themselves and frankly I think they are getting what they deserve.

"Opposite of reading is not reading, it is reading something like New Yorker or Atlantic". - Source unknown.

Re: Over 200 newspapers now involved in lawsuits vs. Google, Facebook

#67

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Dec 07, 2021, 7:59 PM UTC

freediver wrote: post #4

Newspapers allowed Google and Facebook to drag them to their territory of online ad-monetized business models in which they have no way of competing (because of tech discrepancy). This then led to deterioration of journalism and its inevitable transformation into sensationalism and entertainment, again driven by the incentives of the ad-monetized business model, because clickbait makes more ad money. It is a sad stat…

[deleted]

Re: Over 200 newspapers now involved in lawsuits vs. Google, Facebook

#68

Post by mdoms » Tue, Dec 07, 2021, 8:00 PM UTC

briffle wrote: post #17

mdoms wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

News media organisations were forced into bed with Google and Facebook by a tragedy of the commons. Readership was going to go to those platforms as long as any small proportion of media organisations published there. Smaller orgs like the ones involved in these lawsuits had only two options - publish on FB/G or miss out on a large proportion of readership. > monetize like news were monetized for hundreds of years -…

My local paper was bought by USA Today. They shut down the printing press, and laid off everyone except a literally handful of reporters/staff. Printing is done at another paper they bought in another medium sized town 60 miles away. They increased the cost of the paper subscription (even online) and force us view the ads, even with a online subscription. Last time I looked at a giant Sunday paper, 3 articles were lo…

I'm not sure how your post is related at all? Is USA Today one of the small news organisations involved in these lawsuits? My understanding is that USA Today is a behemoth news organisation.

Re: Over 200 newspapers now involved in lawsuits vs. Google, Facebook

#69

Post by KorematsuFredt » Tue, Dec 07, 2021, 8:01 PM UTC

colinmhayes wrote: post #52

freediver wrote: post #4

Newspapers allowed Google and Facebook to drag them to their territory of online ad-monetized business models in which they have no way of competing (because of tech discrepancy). This then led to deterioration of journalism and its inevitable transformation into sensationalism and entertainment, again driven by the incentives of the ad-monetized business model, because clickbait makes more ad money. It is a sad stat…

No one is willing to pay for news because as soon as a piece is published there are thousands of other publishers posting copycat articles. The copycats have next to zero expenses and post on aggregators like facebook with no fee so everyone just reads them. It's a tragedy of the commons that only the government can solve since people prefer to read their news through facebook/google blurbs for free.

> tragedy of the commons that only the government can solve

Tragedy of commons are not always solvable by governments, in this case most certainly not as people in government have their incentives aligned with getting favorable publicity from media.

Government can be a more effective regulatory mechanism for say polluted air or river because cleaner air benefits everyone equally. Media is not the case. Media benefits to those who can control it and putting government in charge will give us another CNN and FOX News.

Re: Over 200 newspapers now involved in lawsuits vs. Google, Facebook

#70

Post by bduerst » Tue, Dec 07, 2021, 8:04 PM UTC

BitwiseFool wrote: post #33

freediver wrote: post #4

Newspapers allowed Google and Facebook to drag them to their territory of online ad-monetized business models in which they have no way of competing (because of tech discrepancy). This then led to deterioration of journalism and its inevitable transformation into sensationalism and entertainment, again driven by the incentives of the ad-monetized business model, because clickbait makes more ad money. It is a sad stat…

>"This then led to deterioration of journalism and its inevitable transformation into sensationalism and entertainment, again driven by the incentives of the ad-monetized business model, because clickbait makes more ad money." People have this notion that the media used to be way more honest and impartial before the digital age but I doubt that was ever the case. Papers were playing fast and loose with the truth long…

Also Yellow Press, which was the big fake news of the late 1800/early 1900s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_journalism

For a while during the last half of the 20th century, this type of sensationalism was staved off though, as the FCC had determined anyone with a news broadcast license had the public responsibility to present different sides to controversial issues. And for a while, it worked pretty well.

This was the fairness doctrine, which was abolished in 1987: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FCC_fairness_doctrine