The Agile/Scrum emperor has no clothes.
Even with Agile and Scrum waterfall will sneak in
151–160 of 319 posts
Re: Even with Agile and Scrum waterfall will sneak in
#152I've never quite understood, over 30 years of experience in software development, what problems Waterfall presented that warranted a complete refactor of software development processes such that things are now very much in cult-/cargo-cult territory. There is a natural process that every issue goes through: Analysis, Specifications, Requirement, Design .. then the Developer takes in the materials of each of these ste…
I was once explained the interest of quick iteration cycles (the main opposition, IMO, to a waterfall model) in a simple way: The teacher drew a very simple chart : y = t. "This is, in a given project lasting from t=0 to t=1, the amount of practical information that you have about how to design this project. At t=1.0, you have 100% of the information. When you start, you have about zero information about it, just gue…
At t=0 you rarely have 0% of the information and usually you can get more information ahead of starting to jump into the water. The problem is that stakeholders often pressure for early results which prevents enough planning and information gathering.
Of course you can also waste too much time on planning and information gathering, but that's not something I have ever witnessed. Usually time is wasted by starting to develop without making a proper plan.
Re: Even with Agile and Scrum waterfall will sneak in
#153Earlier quoted context omitted.
>Australian dollars Perhaps Waterfall (and its cousins) needs an addendum: Check for and Remove Corruption.
Honestly it's mostly incompetence that is the problem and waterfall magnifies incompetence.
Incompetent waterfall magnifies incompetence.
Competent waterfall results in finished software projects.
Re: Even with Agile and Scrum waterfall will sneak in
#154Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Agile (if the culture incentivises honestly) does have the benefit of feedback. Doesn't Waterfall incorporate feedback? In my memory and experience, it does. My memory of learning Waterfall back in the early 90s is a bit hazy, but I distinctly remember that one of the advantages touted was that mistakes earlier in the process of developing software are cheaper to fix than mistakes later in the process (no matter wh…
> Doesn't Waterfall incorporate feedback? In my memory and experience, it does. No, by definition. Do you see a stream of water back to the beginning of waterfall in any waterfall on the planet? Nope.
> No, by definition. Do you see a stream of water back to the beginning of waterfall in any waterfall on the planet? Nope.
I'm not referring to real waterfalls[1], I'm referring to the Waterfall Software Development Process, which is an iterative process that requires almost constant feedback.
[1] Real waterfalls certainly do have the water returning to the top of the fall, only it's not as a stream and it's not immediate :-)
Re: Even with Agile and Scrum waterfall will sneak in
#155"You can't produce a baby in one month by getting nine women pregnant” --Warren Buffett (b. 1930)
Re: Even with Agile and Scrum waterfall will sneak in
#156Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Agile (if the culture incentivises honestly) does have the benefit of feedback. Doesn't Waterfall incorporate feedback? In my memory and experience, it does. My memory of learning Waterfall back in the early 90s is a bit hazy, but I distinctly remember that one of the advantages touted was that mistakes earlier in the process of developing software are cheaper to fix than mistakes later in the process (no matter wh…
There is no such quick feedback. You spend months dreaming up a design spec with plenty of timing diagrams, UML diagrams, classes, etc. Then, it's reviewed, which means people read it and and try to make comments on it, then everyone pat themselves on the back because it's been 'signed-off'. Then you start actually implementing it and you quick find out that, actually... And that's not even accounting for any changes…
> You spend months dreaming up a design spec with plenty of timing diagrams, UML diagrams, classes, etc.
>
> Then, it's reviewed, which means people read it and and try to make comments on it, then everyone pat themselves on the back because it's been 'signed-off'
I'm sure that happens, but I'm not commenting on what happens, I'm commenting on the Waterfall process as I remember it being taught in the 90s. What yysay above is definitely not what was taught.
> Feedback means actual, hard feedback, be it from the customer or reality.
Yeah, which is what the Waterfall process that I remember advocated: that the end-user be involved at all times, that the design be refined iteratively and quickly, and that the requirements.
I'm not sure where this misconception of what Waterfall advocates came from, but you're not the only one with it.
Re: Even with Agile and Scrum waterfall will sneak in
#157Earlier quoted context omitted.
??? It's predictability. You can plan the construction of a building, because the elements are known. If someone fails to deliver a bag of nails on time, it won't matter. If you add labour to a project, it will very ballpark accelerate linearly. 1 team, 10 houses = 10 weeks, 2 teams 10 houses, = 5 weeks. Ballpark. More developers do not mean the software will be finished more quickly. There are economies of focus in…
> 1 team, 10 houses = 10 weeks, 2 teams 10 houses, = 5 weeks. Ballpark. Concrete needs 4 weeks to cure.
https://www.hunker.com/12002648/how-to-paint-an-exterior-hou... suggests building doesn't need foundations to be 100% cured, and you can start after a week or two
Here's exactly the same article but translated for a UK perspective, it's hilarious
https://www.ehow.co.uk/about_4674117_were-concrete-blocks-fi...
> Do not pour concrete in temperatures below -6.67 degrees C.
> Temperatures of 21.1 degrees C compared to 10 degrees C, for example, reduce the 50 per cent strength curing time from 6 to 4 days
Re: Even with Agile and Scrum waterfall will sneak in
#158I've never quite understood, over 30 years of experience in software development, what problems Waterfall presented that warranted a complete refactor of software development processes such that things are now very much in cult-/cargo-cult territory. There is a natural process that every issue goes through: Analysis, Specifications, Requirement, Design .. then the Developer takes in the materials of each of these ste…
If it helps you can think of it like this: Scrum is just Waterfall, but with faster cycles. Traditional Waterfall(tm) is when you spend a year in analysis, a year in specifications, a year in requirement, a year in design... And then you put out a piece of software that's already outdated and doesn't do what the customer wanted or needed. But the company got paid anyway, so off to the next project. With Scrum you go…
On paper. In reality, Scrum is waterfall with a daily standup for management to keep track of progress.
Re: Even with Agile and Scrum waterfall will sneak in
#159Earlier quoted context omitted.
Agile is just 20-30 small waterfalls instead of big one. How small a waterfall needs to be to fail?
Honest opinion: Its not a matter of size. Its a matter of completeness . Agile or waterfall processes fail if you omit the Qualification step, or if you don't ensure that the analysis produces actionable requirements, or clearly formulated specifications that lead to requirements, user/technical/or otherwise.
The whole point of agile is qualification through working software and getting feedback. There is no amount of analysis or requirements gathering that can compete with delivering an understanding of the requirements to serve as a model for how to move forward.
Re: Even with Agile and Scrum waterfall will sneak in
#160Earlier quoted context omitted.
> 1 team, 10 houses = 10 weeks, 2 teams 10 houses, = 5 weeks. Ballpark. Concrete needs 4 weeks to cure.
https://www.hunker.com/12002648/how-to-paint-an-exterior-hou... suggests building doesn't need foundations to be 100% cured, and you can start after a week or two Here's exactly the same article but translated for a UK perspective, it's hilarious https://www.ehow.co.uk/about_4674117_were-concrete-blocks-fi... > Do not pour concrete in temperatures below -6.67 degrees C. > Temperatures of 21.1 degrees C compared to 10…
The issue is not cement or how long it takes to be cured, rather the crude and easy determinism of it all.
Home builders don't generally face existential struggle with the timing of the issue.
You don't go 5x over budget and have it take 5x longer because of this.
You can reliably schedule around cement.