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WhatsApp has removed answer to “how do I choose not to share data with FB”

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Re: WhatsApp has removed answer to “how do I choose not to share data with FB”

#141

Post by jeltz »

maltalex wrote: post #88

This thread is full of people suggesting to just switch everyone, including grandma, to Signal/Matrix/Telegram/XMPP . This is naive. First of all, I'm a big fan of Signal and Matrix, but it is hard to overstate how much more polished WhatsApp is in comparison. There's just a lot more friction for grandma. There are also considerably fewer resources behind the alternatives, so things like this [0] happen (tl;dr - it t…

I do not think WhatsApp is very polished. It does not have a desktop client and when you use the web client you get an annoying notification on your phone which you can't dismiss. Additionally it is quite hard to find things in the preferences and there is no way that toI know of to copy a phone number from a group chat without adding that person to your contacts.

On level of polish I would say WhatsApp and Element are the same (i.e. rough) while Discord is more polished. I do not like Discord and their business but they have created one of very few polished chat clients.

Re: WhatsApp has removed answer to “how do I choose not to share data with FB”

#142

Post by rakoo »

TomSwirly wrote: post #119
rakoo wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I joined a few orgs fighting for a systemic change, understanding the decisions process and be a part of it, more collective life in support of all the discriminated people and a more ecological way of life. Left-leaning stuff. All the public communication happens on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. Private comms are on whatever those platforms have, or Telegram and Discord. Only a minority have Signal and most don't…

I had that issue here too in an org here in the Netherlands. I was working on the tech end, and a lot of our time was spent transferring events from Facebook to other platforms by hand. I asked, "Why are we on Facebook? These guys are completely against us!" and everyone looked patronizingly at the old guy and said, "We need to get our message across in every platform!" They were completely clueless, and I loved them…

That's an interesting point of view, and a paranoid person would question the true motives of such a person in that org: were they in for the collective ? For personal gains ? Working as an agent for a third-party ?

> I asked, "Why are we on Facebook? These guys are completely against us!" and everyone looked patronizingly at the old guy and said, "We need to get our message across in every platform!"

This is actually a point I totally agree with: you have to talk to people where they are, especially when they don't already agree with you. But in my opinion it sends a wrong image and such orgs should use Libre Software and decentralized networks first, and only on top of that use FB/Twitter as a copy-paste of the main platforms.

There's a very important step to do that is to categorize who your target is. Basically it's a bunch of concentric rings: those who agree with you, then those who are questioning and need a bit of information, then those who aren't thinking about the subject yet... you have to convince those around you, who will convince those around them, and on and on. In that vein, sticking to decentralized platforms first and gradually growing makes a lot of sense

Re: WhatsApp has removed answer to “how do I choose not to share data with FB”

#143

Post by swiley »

thathndude wrote: post #117
DeathArrow wrote: post #104

Instead of arguing how bad WhatsApp is in terms of privacy, people would be better off by switching to more privacy respecting alternatives such as Telegram or Signal. I know it's hard to switch if most of your friends are on WhatsApp, but you can talk to them and switch together.

I’m all for competition, but if I could waive a magic wand and move the world to signal, I’d do it. It’s not perfect, but it’s a cross-platform, free, secure, open-source communications platform. I’ll take it for now. Given that WhatsApp uses the Signal tech (largely). I’m always surprised that what’s app still reigns supreme.

Whatsapp is just signal 10 years from now, I'd rather move the world to something not controlled by one company like XMPP.

Re: WhatsApp has removed answer to “how do I choose not to share data with FB”

#144

Post by jeltz »

yosito wrote: post #95
johnisgood wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there's some problem with my Matrix server Yeah, but grandparents (or whoever you are trying to introduce to Matrix) are not supposed to set up and run a Matrix server. If you meant that as an end-user you are having issues with the server you are on, perhaps you should use a different one. I have been using Element for quite a while now with matrix.org as my server, and I did not have any problems with the server…

It's not that I don't know how to solve the problems I face, it's that using Matrix requires more problem solving and has more friction, and that's one big reason why it's not the most popular choice.

No it does not. I just created an account at matrix.org and it worked fine. Does their client have bugs? Yes, but most chat clients have bugs. The only chat clients which have given me extra headache are WhatsApp (trying to get their web client to work and tryibg to stop them from scraping my address book), weechat (it is good but a bit non-obvious how to configure), Teams and Skype.

Edit: I forgot Google Hangouts which is very buggy and where it is almost impossible to add new contacts.

Re: WhatsApp has removed answer to “how do I choose not to share data with FB”

#145

Post by jeltz »

Djejdbdbsjs123 wrote: post #55
barbazoo wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The more technical people in our group tried to register accounts but we were never able to "find" or message each other. It was orders of magnitude more difficult than getting started with telegram or signal. Don't get me wrong, I do want to use Matrix, it was just not feasible at the time. I do know that it's technically the more sustainable choice.

I see. I've only added contacts in person via QR code. I guess it would be more difficult without that.

Only marginally, it is still very easy without the QR code.

Re: WhatsApp has removed answer to “how do I choose not to share data with FB”

#146

Post by jeltz »

hiq wrote: post #91
johnisgood wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Good luck onboarding one's grandma to any of those. Huh? Just do it. Install it, then help her if you have to, similarly to how you introduced WhatsApp (or whatever else) to her, for example. They may not like change, but if they are capable of using another piece of IM software, they are capable of using any of the mentioned ones. I installed Linux for many people who have never seen Linux their entire life. On so…

> Just do it. Install it, then help her if you have to, similarly to how you introduced WhatsApp I think the point is that you don't need to help her for apps like WhatsApp, they manage to figure it out because it's simple enough.

I as a tech user have had issues with getting WhatsApp to work. Much more than I have had with Element.

Re: WhatsApp has removed answer to “how do I choose not to share data with FB”

#147

Post by minusSeven »

DeathArrow wrote: post #104

Instead of arguing how bad WhatsApp is in terms of privacy, people would be better off by switching to more privacy respecting alternatives such as Telegram or Signal. I know it's hard to switch if most of your friends are on WhatsApp, but you can talk to them and switch together.

In India all business communications are moving to WhatsApp because everyone uses it. Even if you switch to other platforms you will be forced to use WhatsApp for business communications.

Re: WhatsApp has removed answer to “how do I choose not to share data with FB”

#148

Post by EMM_386 »

BLKNSLVR wrote: post #116
EMM_386 wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are too many who are too apathetic. Revolutionary change is often a case of "it" getting (a lot) worse before it gets better, but with the inevitability of returning to the previous status quo just with different bums on the same seats. The problem with this is that you have far too many keyboard warriors who read clickbait headlines and decide they want to change the system. The people actually working in th…

I was referring to a potential way that messaging could avoid the ongoing pendulum between small, independent and as-yet un-tainted by snooping platforms and the large, popular, privacy invasions they eventually turn into because of their centralised control. I wholeheartedly do not believe in making aircraft safety a democratic process. Horses for courses. Winston Churchill's quote: “…democracy is the worst form of…

> I wholeheartedly do not believe in making aircraft safety a democratic process.

But if I read you correctly ("society's ability to change politics") ... this is how the US got things like January 6th.

It's completely destabilizing for a functioning democracy when relatively small groups of like-minded people can coordinate over private channels and rally themselves into something crazy.

The reason politics "works" (and I use that term lightly these days) in this country are because things are all done out in the open.

If you don't like "snooping" and would prefer our politics be done in the dark ... that isn't freedom, that's back-channel politics. We don't want that, I don't care if the left or the right is doing it.

I am actually in favor of E2E encrypted chats and the like. But we need to keep politics out in the light of day. If you want to change the system, run for office.

Re: WhatsApp has removed answer to “how do I choose not to share data with FB”

#149

Post by DarylZero »

perl4ever wrote: post #59
zaptheimpaler wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I sometimes wonder whether there is any purpose to it in the long term. If/when Signal becomes big enough to be used by a lot of people, they will want to monetize too and the governments will become interested in monitoring messages there too. It just feels futile. As long as companies need to turn a profit and governments can surreptitiously surveil their citizens there's no long-term solution. We can move to the n…

>If/when Signal becomes big enough to be used by a lot of people I think people (including the government) noticed it a long time ago. From 2015: 'According to CNN, "[t]he same technology that keeps a conversation private between you and a family member also gives a safe haven to a terrorist in Syria and the person in the United States he's trying to recruit to commit an act of mass murder."' https://en.wikipedia.org…

https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/03/13/telegram-signal-apps-ri...

Re: WhatsApp has removed answer to “how do I choose not to share data with FB”

#150

Post by nucleardog »

theshrike79 wrote: post #125
maltalex wrote: post #88

This thread is full of people suggesting to just switch everyone, including grandma, to Signal/Matrix/Telegram/XMPP . This is naive. First of all, I'm a big fan of Signal and Matrix, but it is hard to overstate how much more polished WhatsApp is in comparison. There's just a lot more friction for grandma. There are also considerably fewer resources behind the alternatives, so things like this [0] happen (tl;dr - it t…

Signal and Matrix aren't ready for grandma adoption. Out of all the non-whatsapp choises, Telegram is the least bad (yes, no E2EE, relax) and is something you can actually get your boomer-aged parents and their parents to use with very little help.

I think the adoption of Telegram versus Signal (around 10x) really goes to pretty plainly demonstrate that the average user's priorities are not the same as the average HN user's priorities.

Even ignoring the network effect, for most people the user experience is a _much_ higher priority than things like E2EE. And the trade-offs Signal makes in the way they've implemented E2EE (e.g., if you drop your old phone in a toilet, change your phone number when you get a new phone, switch between iOS and Android, etc, you just... lose your entire message history) are just not acceptable to the average person. I suspect many people would not believe how many people I've heard complain about Telegram because the _stickers_ apparently aren't as nice as things like WeChat.

I'm fairly certain that long term the push to move non-technical users to Signal is going to wind up doing more harm than good. It's being sold as "good for privacy because it's E2EE". People are going to use it, have poor experiences, and then drop it. The next time someone says "use this app because it's good for privacy and has E2EE" it's going to be a much harder sell trying to overcome "Yeah, but the last time I tried that I lost all the message history with my deceased daughter when I bought a new phone."

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