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WhatsApp has removed answer to “how do I choose not to share data with FB”

faq.whatsapp.com

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Re: WhatsApp has removed answer to “how do I choose not to share data with FB”

#121

Post by lobocinza »

johannes1234321 wrote: post #115
sneak wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Telegram is not end to end encrypted, and thus does not preserve privacy at all. The best way to get your friends to switch messengers is to not be reachable on the bad ones: ie delete your accounts and uninstall the apps . Retaining your account on bad platforms makes those platforms more attractive to other users and makes the world worse.

This works for some. However if the sports club of your kid uses WhatsApp to announce training times etc. your kid might miss information etc. Even niftier: In some countries Facebook created this "FreeBasics/internet.org" scheme where access to Facebook services is free. When travelling Indonesia WhatsApp was the only way to reach the landlords of guest apartments, taxi drivers, ... not even regular SMS/text. The st…

I reply to people on Telegram when they message me on Whatsapp if they happen to have a Telegram account.

Re: WhatsApp has removed answer to “how do I choose not to share data with FB”

#122

Post by TaylorAlexander »

indigo945 wrote: post #65
SequoiaHope wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve always assumed signal was a honeypot. They publish some source code but obviously we can’t verify the actual code running on iOS or (I assume) Android devices am I right? It seems like publishing open source could be a smoke screen. When they push code to devices they could link in alternate libraries that do whatever they want. They may even be able to push special code to targeted phones, avoiding detection by…

If this is your threat model, you can sideload the app instead of installing from the app store. This way, you can verify that you have the same app as everyone else and have not fallen victim to a supply chain attack. Ensuring you received an unmodified phone without a nefarious operating system or baseband is probably harder.

> If this is your threat model, you can sideload the app instead of installing from the app store.

Not on iOS.

Re: WhatsApp has removed answer to “how do I choose not to share data with FB”

#123

Post by latk »

oblio wrote: post #109
indigo945 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not true, unlike Telegram, WhatsApp has a reasonable model for E2EE and it's enabled by default. The UI is lackluster and it really should scream more when contacts' public keys change (to prevent MITM attacks), and it doesn't protect metadata such as your contact list at all, but all of that is still better than Telegram, which offers no encryption for group chats at all.

> but all of that is still better than Telegram, which offers no encryption for group chats at all I think Telegram (group) chats are encrypted, just not end to end.

Transport encryption is table stakes. It's really no longer something that can be mentioned as if it were something special. When I browse to a random website I don't think “wow HTTPS, so secure”. The channel client service is encrypted, but the service still gets all of the data in plaintext.

On a technical level, Telegram is are as secure as Facebook Messenger. Both offer transport encryption and optionally E2EE secret chats. Actually, I might trust Facebook more (on a technical level) because they don't have Telegram's disastrous history with home-brewed crypto protocols.

Re: WhatsApp has removed answer to “how do I choose not to share data with FB”

#124

Post by SequoiaHope »

hiq wrote: post #90
SequoiaHope wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve always assumed signal was a honeypot. They publish some source code but obviously we can’t verify the actual code running on iOS or (I assume) Android devices am I right? It seems like publishing open source could be a smoke screen. When they push code to devices they could link in alternate libraries that do whatever they want. They may even be able to push special code to targeted phones, avoiding detection by…

> They publish some source code but obviously we can’t verify the actual code running on iOS or (I assume) Android devices am I right? No, they have reproducible builds. Everything else you said apply even more to other apps, not sure why you think Signal is more suspicious in that regard. But with reproducible builds and the .apk they have on their website, you can check that the source matches it every time you upd…

> they have reproducible builds.

Ah, I see on Android they do. Not iOS according to an open github issue since 2015.

I am suspicious of signal because everyone says "use Signal it is secure" and it is popularly known for this. Because of this reputation for security, users will get comfortable and talk about their illicit activity, which makes it an attractive target for power brokers the world over. Every app could have this problem, but Signal is the one everyone keeps saying is secure, so it's the place people will spill their secrets.

Reproducible builds on android look cool, but I wonder if there are other threat models on Android than dishonest builds of the program itself.

Re: WhatsApp has removed answer to “how do I choose not to share data with FB”

#125

Post by theshrike79 »

maltalex wrote: post #88

This thread is full of people suggesting to just switch everyone, including grandma, to Signal/Matrix/Telegram/XMPP . This is naive. First of all, I'm a big fan of Signal and Matrix, but it is hard to overstate how much more polished WhatsApp is in comparison. There's just a lot more friction for grandma. There are also considerably fewer resources behind the alternatives, so things like this [0] happen (tl;dr - it t…

Signal and Matrix aren't ready for grandma adoption.

Out of all the non-whatsapp choises, Telegram is the least bad (yes, no E2EE, relax) and is something you can actually get your boomer-aged parents and their parents to use with very little help.

Re: WhatsApp has removed answer to “how do I choose not to share data with FB”

#126

Post by theshrike79 »

chii wrote: post #21
mattl wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except Signal is shit for groups

is it? I found it to be good enough for most purposes. What is shit about it?

Moderation tools are lacking compared to, for example, Discord and Telegram. Also no bots, which is an issue for many communities.

Re: WhatsApp has removed answer to “how do I choose not to share data with FB”

#127

Post by theshrike79 »

esarbe wrote: post #111
nyuszika7h wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't like ads either, but they're only going to be in channels, not in groups and private conversations. And if someone really wants to block ads, there are alternatives: * Build and install a custom client with your own API key, and don't share it with anyone * Use an Xposed module (already exists) or Cydia tweak if you're willing to root/jailbreak your phone As for the encryption, it depends on your threat model…

Why not just use Signal instead?

Bad tools for moderating large channels, no bot support.

Re: WhatsApp has removed answer to “how do I choose not to share data with FB”

#128

Post by oblio »

latk wrote: post #123
oblio wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but all of that is still better than Telegram, which offers no encryption for group chats at all I think Telegram (group) chats are encrypted, just not end to end.

Transport encryption is table stakes. It's really no longer something that can be mentioned as if it were something special. When I browse to a random website I don't think “wow HTTPS, so secure”. The channel client service is encrypted, but the service still gets all of the data in plaintext. On a technical level, Telegram is are as secure as Facebook Messenger. Both offer transport encryption and optionally E2EE se…

The thing with E2E encryption, is it really verifiable? Has anyone actually gotten/extracted the WhatsApp secrets and then checked that what goes in one end comes out the other fully encrypted, systematically?

After all, everything goes through WhatsApp's proprietary clients and servers, we don't know what voodoo they do along the way. Just because they claim it's E2E encrypted, doesn't really make it so, I'd imagine. Has their E2E encryption been confirmed independently?

Re: WhatsApp has removed answer to “how do I choose not to share data with FB”

#129

Post by rakoo »

selestify wrote: post #108
rakoo wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I joined a few orgs fighting for a systemic change, understanding the decisions process and be a part of it, more collective life in support of all the discriminated people and a more ecological way of life. Left-leaning stuff. All the public communication happens on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. Private comms are on whatever those platforms have, or Telegram and Discord. Only a minority have Signal and most don't…

> I joined a few orgs fighting for a systemic change, understanding the decisions process and be a part of it, more collective life in support of all the discriminated people and a more ecological way of life. Left-leaning stuff. That's fascinating, because when I joined similar groups last year, they all emphasized using Signal for private comms. They were, in fact, the only people I talked to Singal on, because nob…

From my very little experience there are a few categories:

- groups where privacy is a matter of personal security will actively use Libre Software and their own services because it's just too important

- groups emerging from the technical world will naturally adopt Libre software and decentralized services because tech doesn't scare them

- everyone else comes from a world where FB/Twitter/Instagram is the norm, so when they group together on issues related to the physical world they will continue to use the digital tools they are used to

There is a real work of deconstructing our tools and the prevalence of big tech in our digital world, just like there was a necessity to deconstruct the position of white males in a patriarchal, occidental society.

Re: WhatsApp has removed answer to “how do I choose not to share data with FB”

#130

Post by Angostura »

InsomniacL wrote: post #120
DeathArrow wrote: post #104

Instead of arguing how bad WhatsApp is in terms of privacy, people would be better off by switching to more privacy respecting alternatives such as Telegram or Signal. I know it's hard to switch if most of your friends are on WhatsApp, but you can talk to them and switch together.

> people would be better off by switching In the UK, everybody uses Whatsapp, from friends and family to businesses. That won't change until communication platforms are forced to make their products interoperable with each other. I can't use anything else because nobody else does, I would not even be able to book my Dog in to the Groomers because they won't answer the phone and only respond to Whatsapp. E2E encryptio…

> That won't change until

... you ask people to use an alternative. I got my entire family on to Signal about a year ago. I keep asking the BBC not to use WhatsApp. We'll see.

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