Bumble claims IP rights on employee's open-source libs • Hacker News Board

Re: Bumble claims IP rights on employee's open-source libs

#81

Post by _odey » Sun, Dec 05, 2021, 1:13 PM UTC

rwmj wrote: post #73

_odey wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So does that mean there is literally nothing I can do about it? Except becoming a contractor?

Red Hat has an explicit clause in the contract allowing work on open source projects. As always best to consult a lawyer (not one connected to the company) if this is likely to be important to you.

Would you, or somebody working, or who had worked for Red Hat be willing to copy paste that clause, or contract, redacted of course so we could use it as an example.

Red Hat being who they are, their approach is extremely relevant to this situation.

Re: Bumble claims IP rights on employee's open-source libs

#82

Post by cassianoleal » Sun, Dec 05, 2021, 1:14 PM UTC

Many years ago I had a job offer at Badoo in the UK. After many rounds of going back-and-forth with the contract, me trying to better understand certain clauses, them going back to the lawyers, etc. I told them I'd be happy to sign if they removed the caluses that stated pretty much anything I created on or off hours belonged to them.

They went back to the lawyers and came back to me saying that this is not the first time this has been brought up, that the contract was standard across the org and was originally written for managerial types and C-suites, and that the company had never even considered taking over an employee's off-hours work, open source or otherwise.

I said good, then it should not be a problem to remove the clause. They said they would have another discussion and would really like it for me to join. I said great, then once you issue me a contract with that clause I'll be happy to join, assuming I hadn't found something else.

They never came back to me. For years I wondered if anything had actually changed. Reading this tweet I'm glad I declined.

Re: Bumble claims IP rights on employee's open-source libs

#83

Post by denton-scratch » Sun, Dec 05, 2021, 1:17 PM UTC

anaisbetts wrote: post #49

_odey wrote: post #39

I've asked this before and never got a straight answer, but I'll ask again: what exact clauses do I need to modify in the employment contract, and what exactly must they say, in order to avoid this sort of situation? (relevant to UK employment that is). If you've solved this for yourself, please tell us all how and what it's written in yours so we can do the same. Here is a link to what my previous employment contrac…

Usually the clause where they claim ownership needs to have the phrase "Related to the business", or "During work hours with company equipment". If it tries to claim all IP during the course of the employment, redline it and hand it back

Salaried staff in the UK may be considered to be employed 24/7, even if normal contractual hours are 9-5; i.e. you're not supposed to take a second job. Of course, a hobby isn't a second job, but that argument might not wash at a tribunal.

It's best if you get your employer to recognise that your open-source work benefits them, so they explicitly agree that your FOSS work is part of "the course of your employment", even if you are forbidden to do it during office hours.

This definitely needs to be clear in your contract; if it's not clear, the confusion is likely to be resolved to the employer's benefit.

Re: Bumble claims IP rights on employee's open-source libs

#84

Post by some-more-info » Sun, Dec 05, 2021, 1:17 PM UTC

kgeist wrote: post #4

Here in Russia Rambler tried to do the same with nginx, and they failed to achieve their goals. I don't know, it creates nothing but bad publicity without giving anything in return considering they won't maintain it anyway if the core devs leave (and nothing stops them from forking and creating their commercial solution right now). The image of Rambler before: "Igor Sysoev created nginx while working at Rambler" (pos…

But in this case, while the image is "Arkadii Ivanov created MVIKotlin/Decompose while working at Badoo/Bumble"...

The full story is that Badoo/Bumble had already been working on badoo/MVICore and badoo/RIBs, with other employees working on those products full-time.

Re: Bumble claims IP rights on employee's open-source libs

#85

Post by bsenftner » Sun, Dec 05, 2021, 1:17 PM UTC

_odey wrote: post #39

I've asked this before and never got a straight answer, but I'll ask again: what exact clauses do I need to modify in the employment contract, and what exactly must they say, in order to avoid this sort of situation? (relevant to UK employment that is). If you've solved this for yourself, please tell us all how and what it's written in yours so we can do the same. Here is a link to what my previous employment contrac…

Believe it or not, this actually works: bring your attorney with you to the interview, and accept no interview less than product lead. Basically, it's an arms race currently using guns, and the majority of the dumb ass developers show up with knives.

Re: Bumble claims IP rights on employee's open-source libs

#86

Post by larsrc » Sun, Dec 05, 2021, 1:22 PM UTC

bsenftner wrote: post #85

_odey wrote: post #39

I've asked this before and never got a straight answer, but I'll ask again: what exact clauses do I need to modify in the employment contract, and what exactly must they say, in order to avoid this sort of situation? (relevant to UK employment that is). If you've solved this for yourself, please tell us all how and what it's written in yours so we can do the same. Here is a link to what my previous employment contrac…

Believe it or not, this actually works: bring your attorney with you to the interview, and accept no interview less than product lead. Basically, it's an arms race currently using guns, and the majority of the dumb ass developers show up with knives.

If you're in a union, bring a union lawyer. If you're not, well, this is why you might want to be.

Re: Bumble claims IP rights on employee's open-source libs

#87

Post by ytho1032 » Sun, Dec 05, 2021, 1:24 PM UTC

Knowing a bit more about the background of this story, the dev conveniently left out a few details here and there which wouldn't support his story or his character. He's really not the martyr here.

Re: Bumble claims IP rights on employee's open-source libs

#88

Post by hdjjhhvvhga » Sun, Dec 05, 2021, 1:25 PM UTC

cassianoleal wrote: post #82

Many years ago I had a job offer at Badoo in the UK. After many rounds of going back-and-forth with the contract, me trying to better understand certain clauses, them going back to the lawyers, etc. I told them I'd be happy to sign if they removed the caluses that stated pretty much anything I created on or off hours belonged to them. They went back to the lawyers and came back to me saying that this is not the first…

My experience from the other side of the fence is that this is pretty standard, i.e. nobody would really bother with changing the standard contract for one potential employee unless they were perceived as a crucial asset. The people who do the hiring, the ones who make the decisions and the ones who will work with you later - these are very different groups of people, with some (very temporary) overlap. The hiring ones, just like most people, prefer to avoid unnecessary problems and additional paperwork, and move on.

Mind you, if many people have the same attitude as you, the hiring people may actually make the change happen forcing the people in charge to approve a variant of the contract without that clause and offer it to the ones who complain but are otherwise excellent candidates. But this is not a quick and easy process.

Re: Bumble claims IP rights on employee's open-source libs

#89

Post by mellosouls » Sun, Dec 05, 2021, 1:25 PM UTC

StrLght wrote: post #36

mellosouls wrote: post #32

I don't know the history of the development, and I'm instinctively against overreach by employers but considering both repos are clearly influenced by repos on similar platforms (eg Badoo), it doesn't seem unreasonable for Bumble to at least take an interest in their provenance and - if they have been developed on company time and equipment - their ownership.

JFYI: Bumble and Badoo are the same company.

Thanks, I didn't know that, but I think it reinforces the point.

Re: Bumble claims IP rights on employee's open-source libs

#90

Post by tomxor » Sun, Dec 05, 2021, 1:26 PM UTC

cassianoleal wrote: post #82

Many years ago I had a job offer at Badoo in the UK. After many rounds of going back-and-forth with the contract, me trying to better understand certain clauses, them going back to the lawyers, etc. I told them I'd be happy to sign if they removed the caluses that stated pretty much anything I created on or off hours belonged to them. They went back to the lawyers and came back to me saying that this is not the first…

I had a similar situation with my current job, but with a happy ending. The contract was "standard" but others who also read it thoroughly had the same issue with broad, overreaching clauses that essentially attempt to claim complete IP ownership of everything the employee ever touched. The directors were very reasonable and understood my concerns, we eventually managed to remove or reword all of the offending parts.

The origins of these clauses appeared to be entirely from third party lawyers, probably derived from some boilerplate contract. I presume their priority is to maximise legal "protection" for the company at all cost... even if it drives employees away, so it's not necessarily something the company explicitly asked for. Whether or not you are able to push back against them probably has more to do with the company culture and whether the leaders or hiring managers are sympathetic to developers and how the FOSS world really works.

I think this is probably true for most small companies, that it's incidental and intended for protection... but obviously in this case Bumble seem to actively be exploiting these clauses for gain rather than protection.