Study: Most Dog Breeds Highly Inbred • Hacker News Board

Re: Study: Most Dog Breeds Highly Inbred

#181

Post by notinty » Sat, Dec 04, 2021, 4:56 AM UTC

matwood wrote: post #84

bArray wrote: post #25

This is well known. Sometimes people breed the grandfather with the bitch or even the father. I think 'Pedigree certificates' has a lot to answer for in this regard. It doesn't encourage any kind of genetic diversity and people are actively discouraged and punished for trying to introduce new blood into lines. Another group to blame are 'puppy farms', people who breed merely to make money and take no responsibility f…

Agree with everything you just said. My wife and I (mainly her) rescue French Bulldogs. They are popular so a lot of people get them without realizing all the health issues, then give them up once they realize the money and work involved. 2/3 of our current rescues have had the IVDD (spinal) surgery and are doing fine. One has also had palette surgery in an attempt to open her airway a bit more. None of them should b…

Thank you.

Re: Study: Most Dog Breeds Highly Inbred

#182

Post by pxc » Sat, Dec 04, 2021, 5:26 AM UTC

AlbertCory wrote: post #170

pxc wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fwiw I think what's good about breed rescues, when they are good, are virtues that shelters could also have, in principle (and some shelters do). I would rather rely on robust, publicly funded and publicly accountable shelters that emphasize foster programs of their own than fall back on a ton of random, breed-specific, donor-funded organizations. Seems like that would be better for dogs of mixed and unpopular breeds…

Yeah, one can imagine some kind of public-private partnership that combines "love for a specific breed" with "ease and fairness in finding & adopting the dog you want."

I'm sure you heard it a thoudand times, and you anticipated hearing it when you posted in this thread, but since things are friendly:

chihuahuas and pitbulls are wonderful, wildly underrated dogs.

I used to think I didn't like chihuahuas until I adopted an elderly chihuahua, and she proved to be an angel. I frankly didn't understand the appeal of lapdogs at all, until I found a creature in my care who wanted very little beyond basic human company, and who was so agreeable and sweet that I could take her absolutely anywhere.

Since she died this year, I adopted a chihuahua mix puppy and it has well and truly convinced me that if you do a good job of proving to the critter that the world is safe for them, chihuahuas are lovely, polite, outgoing dogs.

And as it happens, one of his favorite playmates in the whole world is an enormous pitbull mix, who is always delighted to meet him and impressively tolerant of his puppyish nonsense.

I get seeking a breed that looks like the dogs you grew up with, or which you can trust to be reliable around your kids or whatever. But chihuahuas and pitbulls can be seriously delightful and easy dogs to have in your home, and I wish more people would give them a chance.

Re: Study: Most Dog Breeds Highly Inbred

#183

Post by pxc » Sat, Dec 04, 2021, 5:29 AM UTC

AlbertCory wrote: post #161

pxc wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The term "backyard breeder" is just one step up in snobbery from "trailer trash." The term is often used to refer to people running extremely sketchy for-profit operations (basically very small scale puppy mills). Operations like that often falsely present themselves as the more innocent 'oops my grandma's dog and my dog bred one time because we didn't know hers wasn't fixed' type. Traditional breeders have all kin…

> The term is often used to refer to people running extremely sketchy for-profit operations Yeah, no question. There are also people, like the family I got my first cat from, that like to breed animals and do their best to be kind to them. Perhaps some term that doesn't conflate the two groups would be preferable.

> Perhaps some term that doesn't conflate the two groups would be preferable.

100% agreed. I don't give a shit whether someone I buy a puppy from is (let's be real) a sufficiently certified canine eugenicist. I care whether they are kind and responsible and attentive with the animals in their home. That's it.

Re: Study: Most Dog Breeds Highly Inbred

#184

Post by a-saleh » Sat, Dec 04, 2021, 12:06 PM UTC

denton-scratch wrote: post #152

Vetch wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, from what I've read Collies are a smarter breed and also vary in intelligence amongst themselves. High obedience has been shown to at times be counter to good test performance as it means lower curiosity, higher dependence on humans and lower problem solving persistence. Collies are curious, enjoy learning and having a job but can be chaotic when bored, which is markedly different from incurious obedience. > Th…

> Can you explain the significance of not being a Kennel Club breed? Well, the Kennel Club rates breeds in terms of their conformance to "spec", which is a lot about appearance. Inevitably, breeders breed to the spec. Border Collies aren't bred to any spec. (Collies are a different breed, which I believe is rated by the Kennel Club)

Yeah, I have seen a working dog Collie compared to a bred-for-beauty-constests Collie and they could be considered two distinct breeds

Re: Study: Most Dog Breeds Highly Inbred

#185

Post by f6v » Sat, Dec 04, 2021, 6:31 PM UTC

djsbs wrote: post #97

f6v wrote: post #72

Dog breeding is mostly a net-negative for the society. Kind of like jewelry and luxury cars.

This seems like a judgement call from someone who doesn't understand any of the three topics and therefore sees only the negatives. As an example, dog breeding which I know least of the three topics, provided society (the object in your sentence) with very specific work dogs that have served society for centuries. Imagine the Inuit without their sled dogs. Jewelry and luxury cars are easier to justify, but Im so bewi…

1. I'm talking about the society at present. 2. Key part of my argument is “net”.

Re: Study: Most Dog Breeds Highly Inbred

#186

Post by CyberRabbi » Sat, Dec 04, 2021, 9:41 PM UTC

smorgusofborg wrote: post #164

CyberRabbi wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not if they are a mix of two inbred breeds. Good genes are what inherently matters not muttiness, which is just a lazy proxy for good genes.

That is not correct as typical remaining genetic problems are not successfully bred out since they are recessive. The mutt will almost always be healthier than it's parents as it is highly unlikely to have any recessive ailments of either line.

> The mutt will almost always be healthier than it's parents

Two ugly parents will not produce good looking children, even if they are from disparate breeds.

Good looking parents will produce good looking children, even if they are from the same breed.

Muttiness does not create good genes.

Re: Study: Most Dog Breeds Highly Inbred

#187

Post by djsbs » Sat, Dec 04, 2021, 11:27 PM UTC

shituonui wrote: post #150

djsbs wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, sarcasm. Patek Phillipe is 180 years old. “Normal” people used to need mechanical watches to get to work on time until 40 years ago. Anyway, luxury goods don't have to justify themselves (at all) solely on their technological transfer. They are, PP in particular as opposed to mass produced Rolexes, works of human excellence. There is nothing immoral in a watch that took a year of human hours to build that isn'…

>They are, PP in particular as opposed to mass produced Rolexes, works of human excellence. You are getting increasingly metaphysical. These watches are built on antiquated technology and, by design, cannot be mass-produced, so clearly they will never lead to technological innovation. These watches are so rare that they can provide very little beauty. The vast majority of people will never lay eyes on one. Let me ask…

I dont support government support for the arts. At least not in a direct way like buying PPs for library.

Should government buildings be beautiful and be tastefully decorated? Definitely, but no art for art’s sake - it degenerates it

“ These watches are built on antiquated technology and, by design, cannot be mass-produced, so clearly they will never lead to technological innovation.”

By that criteria a Roman era neckless is worthless. Human excellence is not about technology advancement. Its about human advancement. Ill never see a PP except on a store window in NYC. I’ll probably never get around to see the Hagia Sophia either. But I’m overjoyed that humans can build the Hagia Sophia and relieved that in this era of mass produce mediocrity there still are artisans with the focus necessary to make Japanese charcoal, or PPs

Re: Study: Most Dog Breeds Highly Inbred

#188

Post by djsbs » Sat, Dec 04, 2021, 11:35 PM UTC

shituonui wrote: post #148

djsbs wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OP spoke in generalities, and I answered in generalities with specific examples merely as illustrative aids. You just used sarcasm.

Sarcasm is a perfectly valid rhetorical device. If you find it rude, I apologize. Some luxury goods are beautiful. Some are high-performance. However, many of them are prized merely because they are exclusive. I find very expensive jewelry, almost without exception, to be gaudy and hideous. Even if it were tasteful, it could be made with artificial or semiprecious gems and clad base metals with no change in appearanc…

“ Sarcasm is a perfectly valid rhetorical device. If you find it rude, I apologize.”

Its perfectly valid rhetorical device, a needlessly aggressive one that is good at putting down but never constructs. Worse of all, a rhetorical device that has become trite.

Im naturally very sarcastic. In my late 30s, I see it as a personal flaw that has brought me nothing but cheap dopamine hits.

Re: Study: Most Dog Breeds Highly Inbred

#189

Post by gwern » Sat, Dec 04, 2021, 11:41 PM UTC

bigmattystyles wrote: post #63

Isn’t there a known phenomenon where a species has been inbreeding for so long that they’ve selected out defects caused by inbreeding via natural selection? I thought I had heard that about lab mice, but I can’t find info about it.

Yes, that's actually referenced in the Discussion of the paper if you want to look at a mouse textbook. But while that can happen, it obviously has not in dogs given their results. It'd be nice if it had, but it didn't. (I'm not sure why: perhaps lab mice have gone through far more generations, with much more stringent selection on overall health, and that is how much it takes to purge all the exposed bad recessives etc?)

Re: Study: Most Dog Breeds Highly Inbred

#190

Post by gwern » Sat, Dec 04, 2021, 11:47 PM UTC

takk309 wrote: post #99

323 wrote: post #32

I vaguely remember reading that if you randomly bred dogs they slowly revert back to the "original" kind (strays). Is that true?

That does bring up a good question, if one were to breed dogs at random from a very large pool of dogs, how many generations would it take to revert to a wolf-like dog? Of course some care would be needed to ensure the dogs were a compatible size, that is no St. Bernards crossed with corgis. For the sake of argument let's say 1,000 randomly selected medium (30 to 70 pounds) dogs as the initial pool and taking care to…

Assuming no selection is involved, merely global mating completely at random where any dog could breed with any dog, they would never 'revert'. You would instead get a global average of current dogs, and then there would be a very wide bell curve around that mean, which would throw up lots of extremes at random. Genes are conserved, and get randomly distributed among offspring.

It's like how red hair pops up in some families. The red hair gene never 'disappeared' or 'got averaged out', it just kept being passed on until it met another copy. Another example is interracial families: you might think that the kids would all 'look like' the average of the two parents, but sometimes one kid will look just like one parent even though they are biracial. (Apparently this can cause problems, like if a little blonde-haired blue-eyed girl is walking around with her dad from Africa.)

On a historical note, this was a major issue for Darwin & Galton trying to come up with a statistical model of 'genes': the initial efforts of 'blending inheritance' predicted that everyone would quickly become the same height etc, which is both obviously not true (short parents can have tall kids and vice versa) and would mean evolution is impossible (no variation to select on!).