U.S. State Department phones hacked with Israeli company spyware • Hacker News Board

Re: U.S. State Department phones hacked with Israeli company spyware

#571

Post by ryanlol » Sat, Dec 04, 2021, 5:24 PM UTC

justin66 wrote: post #323

Eelongate wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In principle, America could drop Hellfire R9X sword missiles through the cars of every NSO employee. In practice, would American politicians have the nerve to go to war with NSO, when NSO probably infected all their phones years ago? How much dirt do they have on American politicians?

> In principle, America could drop Hellfire R9X sword missiles through the cars of every NSO employee. The next step isn't to blow them up, the next step is to sue them. I just assume the IDF and Shin Bet would like to be the only ones who blow up civilians in Israel, but I can't think of a single reason why the Israeli government would oppose an extradition request if they were presented with evidence of cyber-whate…

> I can't think of a single reason why the Israeli government would oppose an extradition request if they were presented with evidence of cyber-whatever.

Except the really obvious detail that most normal countries won’t extradite their citizens? Israel loosened up their laws on this a bit after the Sheinbein affair, but extraditing resident-citizens remains a rather unlikely prospect.

Re: U.S. State Department phones hacked with Israeli company spyware

#572

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Dec 04, 2021, 5:30 PM UTC

[deleted]

Re: U.S. State Department phones hacked with Israeli company spyware

#573

Post by ryanlol » Sat, Dec 04, 2021, 5:33 PM UTC

xxpor wrote: post #163

ryneandal wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are also numerous instances of their intelligence forces spying on us, an ally. - https://apnews.com/article/israel-jonathan-pollard-espionage... - https://www.politico.com/story/2019/09/12/israel-white-house...

Everyone spies on everyone, no one is actually shocked by that. The US does it too (see the interception of Angela Merkel's phone calls...) The key is you don't get caught doing it, because it removes plausible deniability.

The important detail is to not get caught publicly, generally nobody will raise a stink if western counterintel catches spies from a friendly state.

Re: U.S. State Department phones hacked with Israeli company spyware

#574

Post by runarberg » Sat, Dec 04, 2021, 5:44 PM UTC

yyyk wrote: post #563

runarberg wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This 2 minute web search is flawed. You don’t disprove a smear by a short web search. If there truly is a smear this smear will be included in the results, so your data is biased and proves nothing. My short web search found a secondary source[1] which debunks some of the claims you have mentioned here by offering a little more context around them. The Wikipedia page about Jeremy Corbyn has a whole section devoted to…

The 'debunking' is just noting that the book in question has over 400 pages. Shouldn't we expect a guy writing a glowing foreword to have actually taken the time to read the book he's praising? As far as I can tell, there's a lot of consistent smoke. Somehow Corbyn is always involved but never ever notices the bad stuff. There was a good basis to be concerned: Whether Corbyn is an antisemite, cynical or just totally…

This point is kind of moot given that, unlike Corbyn, Johnson is on record actually using racist slurs.

Re: U.S. State Department phones hacked with Israeli company spyware

#575

Post by rudimental » Sat, Dec 04, 2021, 5:45 PM UTC

runarberg wrote: post #568

rudimental wrote: post #494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You bring up some reasonable points. Argue the case. If you just did, it’s not a convincing one. First, note I didn’t say long term residents of America. Just Canadian or Mexican citizens in general (be they long term residents of the US or not). You may say it’s different. Maybe. Then just talk about those that aren’t long term residents. The point here is equally true of citizens of Armenia, Vietnam, anywhere else…

I see your point now, sorry I misunderstood. There is a fundamental difference though. Canada and Mexico are sovereign nations with their own national assemblies recognized fully by the USA. The same can not be said about Israel’s recognition of Palestine. But USA is not fault free here either, as it does not grant federal representation to a portion of its citizens living in certain districts and territories (includ…

Being a sovereign nation with its own national assemblies fully recognized isn't required.

Israel recognizes the Palestinian Authority or the Palestinian Liberation Organization as the political body responsible for certain agreed upon things including Palestinian elections. They also recognize Hamas as the ruling political entity in Gaza (though I am not sure how formal that is).

My point is about non-citizens. Stateless or otherwise. Citizens of Israel, be they Jewish, Muslim, Christian, Baháʼí, Palestinian, Russian, American, French, whatever, (more or less as far as I know) can vote in Israeli elections. Non-citizens can't. Similar to the US.

You mentioned some situations in which in the US, citizens can't vote (for example those convicted of felony crimes). Presumably situations like this occur in Israel and other democracies as well - I know this about some places but not all.

To be perfectly clear - Palestinians lack the right to vote in Israeli elections if they are not Israeli citizens. Palestinians that are Israeli citizens have full rights to vote like other Israeli citizens. And the other rights assured to citizens of Israel. Are they always fully fulfilled? No. Like every other country. But generally yes.

Citizens of Mexico, Canada, Spain, Vietnam, Armenia, etc. lack the right to vote in American elections if they are not American citizens. Does this make America not a democracy? Or substantially less of one?

My point isn't really about the US, and is really about Israel.

You have to tacitly admit Israel and the US are democracies, to argue they are not perfect democracies (in your words "flawed").

Re: U.S. State Department phones hacked with Israeli company spyware

#576

Post by webmaven » Sat, Dec 04, 2021, 5:46 PM UTC

cwkoss wrote: post #476

webmaven wrote: post #446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well lucky you, we have the exact 100% polar opposite of that system currently. I think it would be fine to move toward it a little. I'm skeptical of the notion that outing public officials (when the blackmail material is personal in nature as posited by the GP) would move toward that goal. I don't even think an exception should be made for material that would expose hypocrisy in policy-making (eg. 'pro-life' lawma…

Why?

Why am I skeptical, or why no exception?

Re: U.S. State Department phones hacked with Israeli company spyware

#577

Post by whatshisface » Sat, Dec 04, 2021, 6:47 PM UTC

technobabbler wrote: post #555

whatshisface wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the question is, what makes it more unacceptable than the destruction of other countries, countries who also have enemies, who are not such close allies? "Feel that allowing that to happen would be unacceptable" is the loaded phrase that holds all the content in that description. The US is not giving that much military aid to every country that has such enemies.

Arguably, genocide anywhere should be confronted and prevented (though of course it never is, because the compassion of our species is quite limited). In the modern era, arguably few have suffered as much as the Jews, in large part due to their historic lack of a homeland and safe haven. That's not to excuse modern Israeli policy, and I find it atrocious that they treat Palestine this way especially because they know…

>most countries that "fall" would just be assimilated into their conquering cultures.

It would be really nice if all cross-border hatred was isolated in one theater where it could easily be dealt with, but that's not the case.

>I don't think we should be arming Israel, but that's only because they can take care of themselves.

One wonders how long it will be until they move on to taking care of their neighbors.

Re: U.S. State Department phones hacked with Israeli company spyware

#578

Post by motohagiography » Sat, Dec 04, 2021, 7:07 PM UTC

azernik wrote: post #507

motohagiography wrote: post #125

Arguably, this is the real use case Pegasus was designed for. A government (Uganda) that does not have a large and mature civil service that would support a G7 level technical domestic intelligence agency went to market for the tools of one (NSO), so they can keep tabs on foreign intelligence agents (state department staff) in their country. I am not a fan of NSO at all, but this case sounds like they're providing so…

Kind of? It seems like the main use case isn't a country that needs the tools of state-on-state spying; it's a country that needs the tools of Chinese-style domestic surveillance of the political opposition. In most cases where US persons have been targeted with NSO software, it's as part of operations against domestic dissidents, including in this case, where most of the usage was against Ugandan protesters.

If you are a state, NSO is what you get when you don't have Stingrays, PRISM, and a pipeline into domestic enforcement for paralell construction. Imo, in this specific case, it's equivalent.

Re: U.S. State Department phones hacked with Israeli company spyware

#579

Post by poisonarena » Sat, Dec 04, 2021, 7:20 PM UTC

rapind wrote: post #567

poisonarena wrote: post #539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that number is way off, and the money they "receive", is specifically for use with US defence contracts and deals.. Its like Disneyland giving you Disneydollars.. You can only spend them at Disneyland.. It is a way for the US military-industrial complex to stay afloat.. And it is a drop in the bucket for Israeli Defence spending, and would make little difference if they took it out.

Pretty sure it's not a "drop in the bucket" (somewhere around 20% I read?). There's also a massive opportunity cost when you consider the profit to be made from an arms race in the middle east should the US treat all countries in the region equal when it comes to arms sales. Pretty sure that would net far more for your military industrial complex than the long standing preferential Israeli treatment. It would also ob…

>(somewhere around 20% I read?).

its closer to 3%

Again the US provides comparable military aid to Egypt and Pakistan too.. NSO is not the Israeli government

Re: U.S. State Department phones hacked with Israeli company spyware

#580

Post by runarberg » Sat, Dec 04, 2021, 7:33 PM UTC

rudimental wrote: post #575

runarberg wrote: post #568

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see your point now, sorry I misunderstood. There is a fundamental difference though. Canada and Mexico are sovereign nations with their own national assemblies recognized fully by the USA. The same can not be said about Israel’s recognition of Palestine. But USA is not fault free here either, as it does not grant federal representation to a portion of its citizens living in certain districts and territories (includ…

Being a sovereign nation with its own national assemblies fully recognized isn't required. Israel recognizes the Palestinian Authority or the Palestinian Liberation Organization as the political body responsible for certain agreed upon things including Palestinian elections. They also recognize Hamas as the ruling political entity in Gaza (though I am not sure how formal that is). My point is about non-citizens. Stat…

> You have to tacitly admit Israel and the US are democracies, to argue they are not perfect democracies (in your words "flawed").

This is a common logical fallacy. “You have to admit the existence God in order to not believe in him.” You could read my post as saying that: If Israel is a democracy, then it has a serious flaw. This is a value judgement on the state of democracy in Israel, not a simple binary: If Israel has democracy then Israel is good, otherwise it is bad.

Now, whether foreign citizen can vote in a country they do not reside in I believe this is misleading the debate. If I hadn’t misunderstood your original point I probably wouldn’t have engage at all. But since I am already engaged I might as well continue (sunken cost fallacy).

Both the Mexican and the Canadian governments have full (or near full) control of their own territory, the same can not be said about the Palestinian Authority as their territories are constantly being encroached on by Israel settlers, sometimes with the permission of the Israeli authorities, and always without their interference. There is also the “puppet” nature of the Palestinian authority. In 2006 when the “wrong” party won a majority, they were promptly invaded by the Israel Military. That doesn’t sound very sovereign to me. There is no world where the USA military would invade Mexico after they would elect a government which the USA didn’t agree with.

No, Mexican relations to USA is not remotely comparable. That is unless you consider Palestine to be a completely separate and autonomous from Israel, which I kind of doubt.