U.S. State Department phones hacked with Israeli company spyware • Hacker News Board

Re: U.S. State Department phones hacked with Israeli company spyware

#451

Post by badRNG » Sat, Dec 04, 2021, 3:26 AM UTC

dundarious wrote: post #441

refurb wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Shadow government” = “Deep state”?

They're both somewhat vague phrases that are heavily context-dependent and have somewhat different connotations, but yes. There's nothing wrong with the phrase "deep state". If you're concerned about associations with Trump (which I think you should not be), you can use a former Obama official's favored term, "the blob". Both, and many other similar phrases, are common in the foreign policy literature. I think the fi…

Regardless of the terminology, the supposed "deep state" is often a fill-in for one's own personal misunderstanding of institutional momentum and basic functions of the government.

"The Government" isn't really a single institution, but a surprisingly loose collection of various institutions that all have some level of momentum guiding the direction they move in. It's critical to note that these institutions may have interests that harshly conflict with one another. Even the intelligence community, insular as it is, cannot be thought of as a monolith, but as various institutions with various priorities, some which conflict with the interests of other government institutions.

When the government does something we dislike politically, or does something we don't understand, it's "the deep state" or "the shadow government" which betrays a deep misunderstanding of what the government is. There's no central, shadowy cabal controlling the affairs of "the government" from behind the scenes, the various institutions that comprise the government maintain momentum and do what is in furtherance of their particular interests.

Re: U.S. State Department phones hacked with Israeli company spyware

#452

Post by makeitdouble » Sat, Dec 04, 2021, 3:29 AM UTC

bjourne wrote: post #416

md_ wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. I can’t tell if you’re agreeing with me or not. :) Prior to Novalpina, it was Francisco Partners. Point being, NSO has received huge amounts of money from the kind of people who, well, YCombinator founders seek out.

Yes, but it is not Francisco Partners now so it appears there is no "big-time American fund" involved and the British one appears to want to get rid of its stake.

From the side-lines this thread looks like:

- md: X and Y are deeply involved in this company

- yiu: No they are not. X cleanly destroyed all the papers and officially ask we don’t talk about them. Y is a bit late but will finish cuting ties in a minute now.

Re: U.S. State Department phones hacked with Israeli company spyware

#453

Post by javajosh » Sat, Dec 04, 2021, 3:35 AM UTC

arthur_sav wrote: post #276

jjeaff wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can believe there are shadow organizations that lack oversight. In fact, it seems likely. But that these shadow organizations are maintaining power by surveiling and blackmailing congress people is a whole other ballgame and seems highly unlikely to me. For one, it's likely that not every Congressperson has some deep dark secret that makes them blackmail-able. And pissing off the only group of people that could cut…

> But that these shadow organizations are maintaining power by surveiling and blackmailing congress people is a whole other ballgame and seems highly unlikely to me. Why is it so hard to believe that a few powerful indivisuals at the top, with common interests and agendas, are banded together? There's no official organization but a few indivisuals that streer things their way because they can.

I think there are enough hornery (and incidentally patriotic) congresspeople that they'd be okay exposing the CIA for blackmail even at the expense of exposing the secret.

The funny thing is that the worst of it is already exposed, and no-one seems to care. money-in-politics, the most serious problem of our time, is a "meh" issue to most folks, even though money poisons discourse on literally every other issues! And we know the precise mechanism and how to stop it (a law overturning Citizens United), and yet we do nothing.

Re: U.S. State Department phones hacked with Israeli company spyware

#454

Post by webmaven » Sat, Dec 04, 2021, 3:41 AM UTC

jjeaff wrote: post #242

linschn wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe stop funding them, for a start? Congressional oversight used to be a thing. Snowden showed the NSA lied to congress. No heads rolled.

I can believe there are shadow organizations that lack oversight. In fact, it seems likely. But that these shadow organizations are maintaining power by surveiling and blackmailing congress people is a whole other ballgame and seems highly unlikely to me. For one, it's likely that not every Congressperson has some deep dark secret that makes them blackmail-able. And pissing off the only group of people that could cut…

> For one, it's likely that not every Congressperson has some deep dark secret that makes them blackmail-able.

Well, if blackmail won't do the trick, there is always extortion…

Re: U.S. State Department phones hacked with Israeli company spyware

#455

Post by wolverine876 » Sat, Dec 04, 2021, 3:41 AM UTC

dundarious wrote: post #441

refurb wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Shadow government” = “Deep state”?

They're both somewhat vague phrases that are heavily context-dependent and have somewhat different connotations, but yes. There's nothing wrong with the phrase "deep state". If you're concerned about associations with Trump (which I think you should not be), you can use a former Obama official's favored term, "the blob". Both, and many other similar phrases, are common in the foreign policy literature. I think the fi…

> There's nothing wrong with the phrase "deep state". If you're concerned about associations with Trump (which I think you should not be), you can use a former Obama official's favored term, "the blob".

To me, 'deep state' implies an illegal conspiracy against democracy. 'The blob' is a large organization that is hard to change, which describes every such organization. Ask an executive at a Fortune 500 company about blobs. The executive branch has the added complication that the CEO has limited powers and doesn't make the rules, Congress does. At work, you follow the boss's instructions. In the executive branch, you follow the Constitution first, then the laws made by the American people via Congress (accumulated over centuries), then the President's instructions - including instructions of prior presidents that haven't been changed.

Maybe 'deep state' was used before Trump, but the meaning has changed.

Re: U.S. State Department phones hacked with Israeli company spyware

#456

Post by kortilla » Sat, Dec 04, 2021, 3:45 AM UTC

badRNG wrote: post #451

dundarious wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're both somewhat vague phrases that are heavily context-dependent and have somewhat different connotations, but yes. There's nothing wrong with the phrase "deep state". If you're concerned about associations with Trump (which I think you should not be), you can use a former Obama official's favored term, "the blob". Both, and many other similar phrases, are common in the foreign policy literature. I think the fi…

Regardless of the terminology, the supposed "deep state" is often a fill-in for one's own personal misunderstanding of institutional momentum and basic functions of the government. "The Government" isn't really a single institution, but a surprisingly loose collection of various institutions that all have some level of momentum guiding the direction they move in. It's critical to note that these institutions may have…

You’re projecting your own interpretation of “deep state” onto a straw man and then tearing it down.

J. Edgar Hoover was a perfect example of what people are talking about with the deep state. You can claim that’s just “institutional inertia”, but it’s still some unelected official with massive power wielding it in nefarious ways.

Re: U.S. State Department phones hacked with Israeli company spyware

#457

Post by wolverine876 » Sat, Dec 04, 2021, 3:47 AM UTC

pstuart wrote: post #311

markus_zhang wrote: post #150

This is a typical "shadow government" symptom. You have forces working within the government that 1) have their own agendas; 2) have connection to international communities, usually military-intelligence ones; 3) have almost zero regulation; 4) even many high ranking government officials don't know about them because they are brotherhood-like closed circles. This reminds me of Operation Gladio or Propaganda Due but d…

5) many high ranking government officials do nothing about this because they're being blackmailed by the spooks. Tinfoil hat territory? Sure. Plausible and possible? Sure.

> Plausible and possible?

By that standard, we should post every conspiracy theory ever created.

Re: U.S. State Department phones hacked with Israeli company spyware

#458

Post by neximo64 » Sat, Dec 04, 2021, 3:47 AM UTC

xwolfi wrote: post #389

neximo64 wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well Israel is a US ally that serves US interests, namely it is by the Suez canal one of the busiest shipping lanes on earth. One could argue that there is a lot of political support for Israel in the US but it really comes down to geopolitical interest. The others, Russia is a US adversary as it seeks to challenge the US order without Russia in it. Iran is a geopolitical adversary, simply because Saudi Arabia is a U…

But that whole definition of friends of foe you've given is ridiculous though. Russia is trying to resist US bullying and european expansionism near its border, Iran revolted against US-selected dictators, and China, the largest country on Earth, doesnt even understand why the US makes any rule in the first place. I think this inflated US self importance is one of the biggest danger to world stability. This way to se…

This explanation is very poor. At their core countries have no feelings, there is no ill will or true adversary. There is a current interest for your people and economy. It is very much in Russia's interest to annex Ukraine, it has nothing to do with US bullying, etc. If Saudi Arabia were not a US ally the Iranian government would find no reason to really look at the US as a foe. Iran and Saudi Arabia have a balance of power to dominate the middle east and Saudi Arabia (with the help of the US) stands in the way of that, and that is why Russia helps Iran to counterbalance that. Historically Iran and Russia do not have alignment in their interests otherwise.

I suspect you see the world this way because you basically 'stand where you sit', but you have to look at it from the point of view of the other side and where people stand where they sit there too. I.e if you were born & raised & were wealthy/vested etc on the other side would your opinion flip. Your opinion should flip, and then of course with both opinions against each other it ends up becoming about having more power, having alliances and playing cards right.

Re: U.S. State Department phones hacked with Israeli company spyware

#459

Post by imbnwa » Sat, Dec 04, 2021, 3:48 AM UTC

badRNG wrote: post #451

dundarious wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're both somewhat vague phrases that are heavily context-dependent and have somewhat different connotations, but yes. There's nothing wrong with the phrase "deep state". If you're concerned about associations with Trump (which I think you should not be), you can use a former Obama official's favored term, "the blob". Both, and many other similar phrases, are common in the foreign policy literature. I think the fi…

Regardless of the terminology, the supposed "deep state" is often a fill-in for one's own personal misunderstanding of institutional momentum and basic functions of the government. "The Government" isn't really a single institution, but a surprisingly loose collection of various institutions that all have some level of momentum guiding the direction they move in. It's critical to note that these institutions may have…

Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex is one of the few pieces of media that gets this right vis-a-vis conspiracy being conflated with the loosely coupled nature of government whose components are sometimes adversarial even in the face of external threat

Re: U.S. State Department phones hacked with Israeli company spyware

#460

Post by triactual » Sat, Dec 04, 2021, 3:51 AM UTC

smoldesu wrote: post #254

Thorncorona wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems if Israel is receiving money from the US government and Israel controls the usage of NSO group weapons that are being targeted at the American government then there are problems yea?

It's a catch-22. Telling other countries not to spy on us while we happily spy on others is a double standard.

What alternative do you propose? Give up? Naively hope every other world leaders (all sociopaths by nature, with intelligence agencies managed by yet more sociopaths) will understand and hold up their end of a deal they don’t even know exists? This is geopolitics, you take every advantage you can get, every time, forever. Spying is how you prevent wars by avoiding misunderstandings and miscalculations.