The Universal Structure of Storytelling • Hacker News Board

Re: The Universal Structure of Storytelling

#41

Post by YeGoblynQueenne » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 8:05 PM UTC

jedimastert wrote: post #9

bambax wrote: post #6

> From one point of view, it’s obvious that, despite exceptions, most stories portray “goody-baddy” dynamics—from nursery rhymes to juicy gossip, from ancient folktales to Holy Scripture, from lowbrow reality shows to award-winning documentaries. The question is, why? Because they are all, actually, from the same culture, as becomes obvious when reading the article. The author is a little quick to call this universal…

This is a huge problem when you see discussions on music theory as well; claims that things like Pythagorean 12 tone scales are "universal" because of the simplicity of the ratios. My favorite is the claims of the universality of divisive rhythm; where larger units (measures, phrases, the like) are subdivided into equal portions and those subdivisions are the building blocks of all rhythm ever. I think music educatio…

I had to look up "additive rythm", eager for a (hopefully not too painful) mind expansion but I couldn't understand the explanation in wikipedia until my friend aksed "what, like kalamatianos?" (3/8 + 2/8 + 2/8 = 7/8). And then we had a big fight because she kept saying "so what, where's the difference"? :)

Morale of the story: it's not just western music that's deeply ingrained into western peoples' minds. It goes the other way too.

Re: The Universal Structure of Storytelling

#42

Post by jedimastert » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 8:23 PM UTC

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #41

jedimastert wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a huge problem when you see discussions on music theory as well; claims that things like Pythagorean 12 tone scales are "universal" because of the simplicity of the ratios. My favorite is the claims of the universality of divisive rhythm; where larger units (measures, phrases, the like) are subdivided into equal portions and those subdivisions are the building blocks of all rhythm ever. I think music educatio…

I had to look up "additive rythm", eager for a (hopefully not too painful) mind expansion but I couldn't understand the explanation in wikipedia until my friend aksed "what, like kalamatianos?" (3/8 + 2/8 + 2/8 = 7/8). And then we had a big fight because she kept saying "so what, where's the difference"? :) Morale of the story: it's not just western music that's deeply ingrained into western peoples' minds. It goes t…

From what I'm seeing yes, although it does go further.

Imagine where every bar was a different length while still keeping a pulse. One might be 3+2+2 then 4+3 then 2+3+2+3 and so on.

Re: The Universal Structure of Storytelling

#43

Post by bryanrasmussen » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 8:27 PM UTC

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #40

bsedlm wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like to think (based on my shallow understanding of technical aspects of stories) that the basic formula of the hero's journey (a hero goes somewhere else and brings back some kind of change) is a general scheme to codify how to change things Ramping up the abstraction (generality) to 11: the hero is in a home (A) the hero goes on an adventure (->) the hero returns home but things have changed (B) i.e. A -> B It is…

Can you say how the Hero's Journey template applies to the Illiad? How about the Odyssey? The Epic of Gilgamesh? The Kalevala? The Mahābhārata (or just the Bhagavad Gita)? Or the Ramayana? Beowulf? My guess is you can't. The "Hero's Journey" is too narrow and too simplistic to be applied to the major epic works of human cultures across the ages. It is a limited abstraction that only serves to describe perhaps a subse…

I agree the hero's journey is too simplistic, but the hero's journey as a concept was popularized by Joseph Campbell who applied it to all those epics. It is pretty easy to google and find people applying the hero's journey to those epics - for example the Ramayana https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=joseph+ca... lots of people making arguments as to how it applies.

Re: The Universal Structure of Storytelling

#44

Post by oblak » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 8:43 PM UTC

I like sci-fi actions and cheese one liners. None of the slow, pretentious artsy shit. But... I really, really like the The Man from Earth

Turns out I like all kinds of stuff, provided it's done right

Re: The Universal Structure of Storytelling

#45

Post by the_gipsy » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 8:57 PM UTC

jedimastert wrote: post #42

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had to look up "additive rythm", eager for a (hopefully not too painful) mind expansion but I couldn't understand the explanation in wikipedia until my friend aksed "what, like kalamatianos?" (3/8 + 2/8 + 2/8 = 7/8). And then we had a big fight because she kept saying "so what, where's the difference"? :) Morale of the story: it's not just western music that's deeply ingrained into western peoples' minds. It goes t…

From what I'm seeing yes, although it does go further. Imagine where every bar was a different length while still keeping a pulse. One might be 3+2+2 then 4+3 then 2+3+2+3 and so on.

Maybe I’m totally off here, because I don’t really know that much about music theory. But I think this is exactly what happens in Flamenco. A Bulería song/performance has 12 beats, mostly 6/8+3/4, accented on 3, 6, 8, 10, 12. The chord changes on 3 and 10. The accents can change to literally anything, deviating from the 6/8+3/4, spanning multiple bars. As long as the chord change is there, or the 10th is heavily accented with a stop, when done. Because the chord change is asymmetrical, it never really feels like “just 3/4” or whatever is happening rhythmically.

It’s like a meta game to outwit each other, but always finding the common ground immediately.

Re: The Universal Structure of Storytelling

#46

Post by robbedpeter » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 10:06 PM UTC

The trouble with deconstructing story in this way is the lack of a clear stopping point. How many degrees of abstraction can you go before anything can be interpreted to mean anything else? What conditions are necessary to ascribe to a concept the meaning its author intended? What if the author meant to use ambiguity skillfully, so as to convey multiple meanings with a seemingly singular statement?

What is right and correct thinking, and if there are exceptions, does that tie into some sort of meta-rule about rightness, and how should it inform our own internal storytelling as we manifest our lives?

I'm always left at the zen koan: Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water.

Reality is that which remains after you stop believing in it. Interpretations and narratives with subjective contexts need to tie into the "chop wood, carry water" reality of the author, or your interpretation is invalid.

Re: The Universal Structure of Storytelling

#47

Post by bsedlm » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 10:16 PM UTC

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #40

bsedlm wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like to think (based on my shallow understanding of technical aspects of stories) that the basic formula of the hero's journey (a hero goes somewhere else and brings back some kind of change) is a general scheme to codify how to change things Ramping up the abstraction (generality) to 11: the hero is in a home (A) the hero goes on an adventure (->) the hero returns home but things have changed (B) i.e. A -> B It is…

Can you say how the Hero's Journey template applies to the Illiad? How about the Odyssey? The Epic of Gilgamesh? The Kalevala? The Mahābhārata (or just the Bhagavad Gita)? Or the Ramayana? Beowulf? My guess is you can't. The "Hero's Journey" is too narrow and too simplistic to be applied to the major epic works of human cultures across the ages. It is a limited abstraction that only serves to describe perhaps a subse…

Dan Harmon (who is a pretty good storyteller) made a really good (and IMO fun to read) overview of how this plays out in "practice":

https://channel101.fandom.com/wiki/Story_Structure_101:_Supe...

Re: The Universal Structure of Storytelling

#48

Post by YeGoblynQueenne » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 11:26 PM UTC

jedimastert wrote: post #42

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had to look up "additive rythm", eager for a (hopefully not too painful) mind expansion but I couldn't understand the explanation in wikipedia until my friend aksed "what, like kalamatianos?" (3/8 + 2/8 + 2/8 = 7/8). And then we had a big fight because she kept saying "so what, where's the difference"? :) Morale of the story: it's not just western music that's deeply ingrained into western peoples' minds. It goes t…

From what I'm seeing yes, although it does go further. Imagine where every bar was a different length while still keeping a pulse. One might be 3+2+2 then 4+3 then 2+3+2+3 and so on.

Aye, zeibekiko is the most characteristic example I know of that:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeibekiko

It's 9/8s in uneven splits, but it's difficult to break it down without showing you (by tapping my hand!). The wikipedia page has a couple of different analyses.

The stuff that really messes with my brain is Greek Pontiac dances like dipat, like this one:

https://youtu.be/tTZDVKMZOrk

I don't even know what the rythm is for that. Me and my friend keep trying to count it and failing and dissolving in giggles because we just can. not. comprehend it. (I got halfway to a modern drums diploma and my friend has studied classic guitar for ages. So much for that).

Here's a modern vesrion with more prominent percussion:

https://youtu.be/EeCOl8gn-1A

Here's a different Pontiac dance, Kotsari:

https://youtu.be/IhtBTr0Ip1k

And here's a Baidushka from Eastern Thrace:

https://youtu.be/etU9eqQJweg

Counting which are left as an exercise to the reader.

Have fun and sorry for the nerd snipe :)

Re: The Universal Structure of Storytelling

#49

Post by timoth3y » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 11:45 PM UTC

> it’s obvious that, despite exceptions, most stories portray “goody-baddy” dynamics

This is simply not true. At all. Sure, good vs bad is a very simple narrative and so is commonly used, especially in things like children's stories.

But the whole form of Greek Tragedy is based on the idea that bad things happen to good people. That there are no "goodies and baddies". Fortune gives and fortune takes away.

Some of the most popular and retold stories in Western literature are not good vs bad. There are no "good guys and bad guys" in Romeo of Juliet, To Build a Fire, The Gift of the Magi, etc

There are, of course, challenges. But those challenges are not evil or bad. They are just the human (or natural) condition. Childlike minds might demand a good guy vs bad guy narrative, but it's not universal.

In fact, I would wager that many of the hunter-gatherer societies that the author hand-waves away as simplistic have very complex story-telling mythology and cannon.

Re: The Universal Structure of Storytelling

#50

Post by YeGoblynQueenne » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 11:55 PM UTC

bryanrasmussen wrote: post #43

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you say how the Hero's Journey template applies to the Illiad? How about the Odyssey? The Epic of Gilgamesh? The Kalevala? The Mahābhārata (or just the Bhagavad Gita)? Or the Ramayana? Beowulf? My guess is you can't. The "Hero's Journey" is too narrow and too simplistic to be applied to the major epic works of human cultures across the ages. It is a limited abstraction that only serves to describe perhaps a subse…

I agree the hero's journey is too simplistic, but the hero's journey as a concept was popularized by Joseph Campbell who applied it to all those epics. It is pretty easy to google and find people applying the hero's journey to those epics - for example the Ramayana https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=joseph+ca... lots of people making arguments as to how it applies.

I understand that and thanks for the Ramayana links, but I think one has to stretch the template so far to fit such epics that it kind of loses its meaning. It gets to the point where everything is "a hero goes on a journey" which can really describe everything and anything ("John went to the corner shop to buy a beer"). At that point it's not about stories with common characteristics, it's just an over-generalisation broad enough to cover anything.

For example the Illiad is about Achilles being a major asshole, throwing a hissy fit and then getting his arrogant self killed. What's hero's-journey about that? Yet people will find ways to (try and) do it anyway:

https://thetrojanwar.wordpress.com/2012/05/09/trojan-war-tra...

(Bonus Odyssey application in the link).