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Facebook reverses Kyle Rittenhouse policy

bbc.com

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Re: Facebook reverses Kyle Rittenhouse policy

#401
post #394
post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So in America, the police just kinda stand by while "so much of the city was being destroyed" and two people are killed. Wow.

The situation is more involved than that. The protests were about perceived police brutality. Cop's view: A guy had a knife in the seat that they'd seen previously. He was wanted for raping his a woman and was in the process of stealing her van and kidnapping her kids. Even if there were no knife, you don't allow the rapist to get into the deadly weapon and take kids as hostages. To them, the riots were unjust and a…

Wow, America is far more messed up than I had realized previously. Not sure I know of any developed country where armed citizens can simply chose to do that.

Re: Facebook reverses Kyle Rittenhouse policy

#402
post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> thanks for keeping it civil Same! Just briefly on this: > Rosenbaum, who unilaterally attacked Rittenhouse I don't think it's been clearly established why Rosenbaum attacked Rittenhouse. Rittenhouse's testimony on this sounds hollow and unlikely, and the narrative that Rosenbaum was unhinged after getting out of hospital doesn't quite tally with the fact that there were people with him - he wasn't a lone actor here…

>It seems incredibly unlikely that there wasn't some sort of verbal provocation from Rittenhouse's side. At that time tempers were already flaring nationwide and I find both the above, as well as it's inverse, plausible. Most likely, both sides were clashing, as is oft the case in situations as volatile as this. Returning to the NYT's video of Rosenbaum, there's a few things to note. One, that he was potentially ment…

> Most likely, both sides were clashing

Agreed.

> two, he was directly antagonizing the "militia"

Again, we see a part of the story here which definitely supports that interpretation. There's also a part of the video you linked to which (I believe) shows the police asking the 'militia' not to point their guns at people[0], which to me suggests that they had been doing this prior to the request from the police. I think it's impossible to know whether Rosenbaum's behaviour was in response to some (perceived?) aggression against him in the first place.

> I gave more credence to Rosenbaum ultimately initiating.

Potentially. However, Rittenhouse is running, with his gun, towards a location where Rosenbaum's 'side' are up to something. Maybe Rosenbaum believes Rittenhouse is going to go and shoot some of the other protestors (or vandals, whatever), and that's why he starts chasing. As you say, it's a long chain back to where the first 'provocation' may have happened. It's clear that the situation developed over the course of the whole day, rather than in the 15 seconds leading up to the killings.

> I'd be aghast to have a whole pile of media flaming me and having whatever scant opposition to that narrative literally blocked

Yes, but at the end of the day, you shot and killed not just one person, but two. The president of the USA was publicly in his corner[1]. I'm not sure I'd say that the opposition to the narrative was blocked, it was just against Facebook's policies. They get slammed when they don't react quickly enough[2], strongly enough[3], etc., and then they get slammed when they do take stronger action, so frankly it's hard to see how they could get it right. I get the free speech implications, but if your only forum for free speech is through Facebook, we have much worse problems in society than whether they allow you to post 'Rittenhouse is a hero' or not.

> the government [...] should be most at fault

That's a pretty accurate summary of my position. Failing to properly maintain order led to the formation of vigilante groups (and it seems these were even encouraged by law enforcement), which ultimately led to the clashes which resulted in Rosenbaum and Huber's deaths.

[0]: https://youtu.be/VpTW2AJE9MQ?t=980 [1]: https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updates-protests-for-racia... [2]: https://www.politico.eu/article/facebook-content-moderation-... [3]: https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2021-01-15/facebook-tw...

Re: Facebook reverses Kyle Rittenhouse policy

#403
post #401
post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The situation is more involved than that. The protests were about perceived police brutality. Cop's view: A guy had a knife in the seat that they'd seen previously. He was wanted for raping his a woman and was in the process of stealing her van and kidnapping her kids. Even if there were no knife, you don't allow the rapist to get into the deadly weapon and take kids as hostages. To them, the riots were unjust and a…

Wow, America is far more messed up than I had realized previously. Not sure I know of any developed country where armed citizens can simply chose to do that.

Let your cops leave you alone in that situation and you'll see people with bows, bats, slings, staffs, hammers, knives, shields and whatever else.

Humanity is the same everywhere and looking at history shows this to happen every time a local power vacuum is created and mobs begin to rule.

Re: Facebook reverses Kyle Rittenhouse policy

#404
post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Out of interest, with regards to Huber and Grosskreutz, do you believe that they were also justified in trying to defend against what seemed at the time to be an active shooter? Grosskreutz stated outright during the trial that he had no reason to believe Rittenhouse had shot anyone. Despite this, there is video of him pulling his gun while he was chasing Rittenhouse down. Maybe this was just mob mentality Maybe th…

> Grosskreutz stated outright during the trial that he had no reason to believe Rittenhouse had shot anyone Could you share a link? I could only find part of his testimony where he says that he thought Rittenhouse was an active shooter. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bv21bE9PWtE&t=3958s

Have you watched the entire testimony? On cross, he contradicts almost everything he said on direct questioning.

2:11:20 -- Grosskreutz denies he was chasing Rittenhouse.

2:23:30 -- he establishes that when he saw Rittenhouse, he was just helping people

2:27:00 -- he says he believed there was an active shooter, but had no information about who it was and apparently had no way to say why he believed this to be the case.

On the video Grosskreutz was taking with his camera, it is shown that Rittenhouse says that he is going to the police. Grosskreutz claims he though Rittenhouse said "he shot first" even though they sound absolutely nothing alike.

2:30:00 -- he says he was NOT chasing Rittenhouse. Instead, he just happened to be coincidentally pulling his gun while he happened running in the same direction. At the same time, he says he was running that direction because Rittenhouse was. Make of this inconsistency what you will.

2:31:00 -- he sees people mobbing Rittenhouse

2:32:00 -- he says he was concerned about Rittenhouse's safety. This DIRECTLY argues against the idea he believed Rittenhouse was an active shooter.

2:35:00 -- he believed Rittenhouse was in physical danger (even though he just denied seeing jump kick man kick Rittenhouse)

2:36:00 -- he says Huber was slinging his skateboard by the trucks (note: a skateboard is 11 pounds while a baseball bat is only 2 pounds). He says that as a medic, this concerned him. He says he believed Rittenhouse was in danger of head trauma and being seriously hurt. He even claimed in his police report that he told Huber to stop hitting Rittenhouse (though he says in hindsight this was untrue). Once again, there is no reason for concern if he believed Rittenhouse was a dangerous active shooter.

2:37:30 -- he claimed to the police that Rittenhouse just shot him. He completely left out that he had a gun and was advancing and that no shots were fired when he put his hands up.

2:38:30 -- he claims the anesthesia somehow made him forget about the gun while still allowing him to remember everything else with perfect clarity.

2:44:00 -- delving into prosecutorial misconduct where the prosecutors suddenly decided to tell the detectives not to execute a search warrant (they don't want Brady evidence is my read given all the other misconduct allegations).

2:48:00 -- he testifies that EVERYONE who put up their hands and backed off -- even the guy with a club -- do NOT get shot. Once again, this is not what an active shooter does.

2:51:30 -- the point where the prosecution lost case. He contradicts his testimony to the prosecutor in the face of an image of his bicep being vaporized (his word) while his gun is pointed directly at Rittenhouse's head.

Re: Facebook reverses Kyle Rittenhouse policy

#405
post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Grosskreutz stated outright during the trial that he had no reason to believe Rittenhouse had shot anyone Could you share a link? I could only find part of his testimony where he says that he thought Rittenhouse was an active shooter. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bv21bE9PWtE&t=3958s

Have you watched the entire testimony? On cross, he contradicts almost everything he said on direct questioning. 2:11:20 -- Grosskreutz denies he was chasing Rittenhouse. 2:23:30 -- he establishes that when he saw Rittenhouse, he was just helping people 2:27:00 -- he says he believed there was an active shooter, but had no information about who it was and apparently had no way to say why he believed this to be the ca…

Don’t get me wrong, he makes a lot of mistakes, contradicts himself all over the place, and is generally not what I would call a reliable witness by any stretch of the imagination, but I can’t find anywhere where he said that he had no reason to believe Rittenhouse had shot anyone.

I admit though that I’ve only seen the highlights of the cross, which I why I asked for a link.

I might go away and watch the rest of cross this evening.

Re: Facebook reverses Kyle Rittenhouse policy

#406
post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He didn’t pull the trigger and kill anyone. He’s a chaotic good, sure. Rittenhouse is lawful evil. That’s all.

I wouldn't refer to someone charged with a DUI, or illegally conceal-carrying a pistol, as being "chaotic good".

You really don't understand the split then, huh?

Break the law, but don't harm anyone = Chaotic.

Help people (be a medic) = Good.

I mean, just because you don't like someone doesn't make them bad.

Re: Facebook reverses Kyle Rittenhouse policy

#407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(He's a chaotic) (good, sure)

What? "Chaotic good" and "lawful evil" are common terms. Why are you trying to split up the grandparent post's wording in a way they very obviously didn't intend?

You really don't understand the split then, huh? Break the law, but don't harm anyone = Chaotic.

Help people (be a medic) = Good.

I mean, just because you don't like someone doesn't make them bad.

Re: Facebook reverses Kyle Rittenhouse policy

#408
post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rittenhouse had just actively shot two people. Is your argument that he was passive or that guns don’t shoot?

Rittenhouse had shot one person, who had chased him and lunged for his gun, at the time the mob chased after him. He was not aiming his gun at anybody else nor did he fire his gun at anybody else until he was being attacked. Grosskreutz had chased after him after he had shot Rosenbaum, but Grosskreutz did not witness the shooting himself - none of Rittenhouse's pursuers had. He got close enough to Rittenhouse to ask…

Did you watch the video? In what world did none of his pursuers not know he had just killed someone? And to be a pedant, he was only drawn on after the second murder, even though they were in close succession.

[0]Mr. Rittenhouse seems to make a phone call and then flees the scene. Several people chase him, some shouting, “That’s the shooter!”

As Mr. Rittenhouse is running, he trips and falls to the ground. He fires four shots as three people rush toward him. One person appears to be hit in the chest and falls to the ground. Another, who is carrying a handgun, is hit in the arm and runs away.

Mr. Rittenhouse’s gunfire is mixed in with the sound of at least 16 other gunshots that ring out during this time.

[0] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/27/us/kyle-rittenhouse-kenos...

Re: Facebook reverses Kyle Rittenhouse policy

#409
post #318
post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rittenhouse had just actively shot two people. Is your argument that he was passive or that guns don’t shoot?

>Rittenhouse had just actively shot two people. No he didn't. He had just defended himself against two assailants, while trying to flee. He was never, at any point in time, an "active shooter". An "active shooter" is "an individual actively engaged in killing or attempting to kill people in a confined and populated area; in most cases, active shooters use firearms and there is no pattern or method to their selection…

Trying to flee a crowd that attempted to detain him for shooting someone.

Let's play hypothetical here. School shooter is bullied and hit in a fight. He shoots bully dead and starts running. He then shoots two people tackling him.

Is he not an active shooter?

Why are you doing such mental gymnastics to lionize this kid? You can debate over whether he should go to jail or not, but the reality is he extra-judicially killed 2 people. Doesn't that make you feel weird to defend that, even if you disagree politically with his victims?

Re: Facebook reverses Kyle Rittenhouse policy

#410
post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rittenhouse had just actively shot two people. Is your argument that he was passive or that guns don’t shoot?

The argument is that he was going to turn himself in. That might be what you meant by passive.

Sure, but we take teenagers (who just shot someone and are RUNNING away) at their word now?

And if you don't, you're justified in being shot while pursuing him?

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