Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Condo Association Bans Owners from Parking EVs in the Garage

cleantechnica.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 44 posts

Re: Condo Association Bans Owners from Parking EVs in the Garage

#31

Post by AtlasBarfed »

This is standard fare for condo associations.

These are almost always chock full of old crotchety rules lawyers that undoubtedly don't want their association dues to increase one red cent just because some whippernsapper dogooder lazy millenial wants this. They are the knowitall Boomer generation!

Of course this will fix itself VERY QUICKLY once condo associations realize NOT having sensible charging infrastructure in a parking garage will hurt your condo's resale/property value.

Fussing about the association dues is peanuts compared to the new third rail of white politics: your home's property value.

Re: Condo Association Bans Owners from Parking EVs in the Garage

#32

Post by busterarm »

nielsbot wrote: post #29
busterarm wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> With lithium battery fires, you need to both extinguish the fire and cool the battery. They’re like those trick birthday candles. Water is usually best at both jobs. What would be better is a charger hooked up to a standpipe with orifices in the car to extinguish and cool the batteries. No, this is stupid. Lithium, the main component of this battery chemistry, reacts _intensely_ with water, producing both lithium h…

Parent comment seems to be correct: the key thing to do is lower the temperature. Here's an interesting FAA study I found about it: https://www.fire.tc.faa.gov/pdf/TC-13-53.pdf Also, just googling it returns this, for example "Traditional fire extinguishers, such as foam and water, don’t work on lithium battery fires. The only way to extinguish a lithium battery fire is to flood the battery with water." [ https://bri…

That's "for the prevention of thermal runway". This study is talking about how to _prevent_ fires.

We're talking about fires that have already started here and are raging out of control and consuming the car.

    The battery verification tests confirmed that aqueous agents were most effective for the prevention of thermal runaway propagation. For the lithium-ion cell chemistries tested, none of the handheld agents at their recommended application distances were able to prevent propagation.
    The lithium-metal battery tests revealed that, without suppression, the cells would propagate into thermal runaway. To stop propagation, 500 mL of the aqueous agents were sufficient.

Re: Condo Association Bans Owners from Parking EVs in the Garage

#33

Post by errcorrectcode »

Arrath wrote: post #3
tssva wrote: post #2

I'm not saying I agree with the condo association but I am confused by the counterpoint the article author tries to make. Their response is regarding the odds of an EV catching fire vs the odds of a ICE catching fire. They even state that if the odds of an ICE catching fire is equal or greater than an EV than ICE's should also be banned. But the associations argument against EVs in the garage isn't based mainly aroun…

One (redundant and costly) solution might be for building code to require two side-by-side sprinkler systems for garages, one that sprays water and another that sprays chemical fire retardants suitable to fighting battery fires and the like.

I'm unaware of chemical fire suppressants for EVs. The FAA's advice is to use lots of cold water, which brings the batteries temperature below the auto ignition point. (The concern for hydrogen production is moot in a fire scenario due it not being pure, free lithium.)

Re: Condo Association Bans Owners from Parking EVs in the Garage

#34

Post by brianwawok »

busterarm wrote: post #23
wing-_-nuts wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EV cars rarely catch fire also? If I'm mistaken, and EV fires are endemic or something, please post a source that lays out the fire rates between ev and ice cars. I think banning them is a stupid, ignorant solution in search of a problem, and I don't own one, nor will I for the foreseeable future. Edit: study here: https://www.autoinsuranceez.com/gas-vs-electric-car-fires/

They rarely catch fire, but ICE cars catching fire while parked is even more rare. Plus EV fires are significantly more catastrophic. I also think banning EVs would be stupid, but we need to be serious about having the proper infrastructure to support them and nobody is talking about it. I don't want an EV within 50 yards of my house or really any other indoor structure. They should be required to be parked outdoors…

You make a lot of bold claims with no evidence.

Good thing I guess that you don't get to dictate federal policy, which is moving in the opposite direction.

Re: Condo Association Bans Owners from Parking EVs in the Garage

#35

Post by brianwawok »

KingMachiavelli wrote: post #22

Considering that Tesla is moving to LFP batteries which are much safer and less likely to catch fire and I think other auto makers are expected to follow. I would not be surprised if this is a none issue in a year or two. Are there any shipping cars using LFP batteries yet?

AFAIK Tesla has no plans to move their high end cars to LFP.

It's currently for cars made in China, and would be for the lower end cars, such as a standard range 3/y. X and S have no immediate plans to switch, or they would be at a competitive disadvantage to people like Lucid and Rivian.

Re: Condo Association Bans Owners from Parking EVs in the Garage

#36

Post by brianwawok »

AtlasBarfed wrote: post #31

This is standard fare for condo associations. These are almost always chock full of old crotchety rules lawyers that undoubtedly don't want their association dues to increase one red cent just because some whippernsapper dogooder lazy millenial wants this. They are the knowitall Boomer generation! Of course this will fix itself VERY QUICKLY once condo associations realize NOT having sensible charging infrastructure i…

It's why you want to get on the board of your condo.

yah more work for no pay sucks, but far better to control your own fate. In many smaller condos, they practically have to beg people to run for office..

Re: Condo Association Bans Owners from Parking EVs in the Garage

#37

Post by errcorrectcode »

busterarm wrote: post #24
teeray wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With lithium battery fires, you need to both extinguish the fire and cool the battery. They’re like those trick birthday candles. Water is usually best at both jobs. What would be better is a charger hooked up to a standpipe with orifices in the car to extinguish and cool the batteries.

> With lithium battery fires, you need to both extinguish the fire and cool the battery. They’re like those trick birthday candles. Water is usually best at both jobs. What would be better is a charger hooked up to a standpipe with orifices in the car to extinguish and cool the batteries. No, this is stupid. Lithium, the main component of this battery chemistry, reacts _intensely_ with water, producing both lithium h…

Unfortunately, you're wrong in this scenario. The FAA demonstrates this isn't a concern. You should do your research before promulgating FUD and misinformation.

Re: Condo Association Bans Owners from Parking EVs in the Garage

#38

Post by errcorrectcode »

busterarm wrote: post #32
nielsbot wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Parent comment seems to be correct: the key thing to do is lower the temperature. Here's an interesting FAA study I found about it: https://www.fire.tc.faa.gov/pdf/TC-13-53.pdf Also, just googling it returns this, for example "Traditional fire extinguishers, such as foam and water, don’t work on lithium battery fires. The only way to extinguish a lithium battery fire is to flood the battery with water." [ https://bri…

That's "for the prevention of thermal runway". This study is talking about how to _prevent_ fires. We're talking about fires that have already started here and are raging out of control and consuming the car. The battery verification tests confirmed that aqueous agents were most effective for the prevention of thermal runaway propagation. For the lithium-ion cell chemistries tested, none of the handheld agents at the…

The FAA has an instructional video for flight attendants and other flight crew as to how to extinguish li-ion fires.

Step one: pour a bunch of cold drinks on it.

Step two: the end.

Edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sh3ZOvhRNwU

Re: Condo Association Bans Owners from Parking EVs in the Garage

#39

Post by adriancr »

Arrath wrote: post #6
listenallyall wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...and a simple alternative to an expensive fix is to simply ban the cars. I would expect that if fire codes require retrofixes, similar bans will become widespread (and popular).

Certainly. I was imagining a more forward-looking requirement with grandfather clauses for existing systems. EV's will only become more widespread, fires will naturally be an occasional fact of life, and it seems untenable to ban keeping them in garages forevermore.

> it seems untenable to ban keeping them in garages forevermore.

Concern is if something bad happens it's catastrophic, even if the chance that it happens is slim...

So, until buildings are retrofitted to deal with EV fires this proposal seems reasonable. It's going to be interesting when EVs become the majority, but by that point they can be self driving and shared vehicles / always running and doing something.

Re: Condo Association Bans Owners from Parking EVs in the Garage

#40

Post by busterarm »

errcorrectcode wrote: post #37
busterarm wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> With lithium battery fires, you need to both extinguish the fire and cool the battery. They’re like those trick birthday candles. Water is usually best at both jobs. What would be better is a charger hooked up to a standpipe with orifices in the car to extinguish and cool the batteries. No, this is stupid. Lithium, the main component of this battery chemistry, reacts _intensely_ with water, producing both lithium h…

Unfortunately, you're wrong in this scenario. The FAA demonstrates this isn't a concern. You should do your research before promulgating FUD and misinformation.

lol...FUD. it's basic fucking chemistry.

Go back to school. Please.

Batteries that the FAA is worried about are orders of magnitude smaller than what we're talking about in an electric vehicle.

Post reply on HN