Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory • Hacker News Board

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#921

Post by mmcnl » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 8:58 AM UTC

nzk wrote: post #47

What we're seeing here is one of the wealthiest countries in the world with a population of > 80M people crumbling over a few thousand ICU patients because of long-standing issues that were never addressed. The staffing problems in hospitals (and nursing homes) have existed much longer than Covid. I heard a lot about them myself when I did my FSJ (volunteer work) back in 2004, and it's only gotten worse since then. O…

This is imo not true. Ofcourse there could be more ICU beds, but the real problem is something called exponential growth. Doubling your ICU capacity only will give you a week or two until you need to have restrictions again. Failing to include the concept of exponential growth is cherrypicking facts.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#922

Post by timdaub » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 8:58 AM UTC

lend000 wrote: post #700

timdaub wrote: post #369

I find it ironic that there are plenty comments that paint the picture of how mandatory vaccinations divide the country. Hello? Have you been awake for the last month? How much more divided can a country already be when the absolute democratic majority has made their decision months ago to take the shot but 30% are holding everyone back. Anyone in my family or from my friends that has taken one for the team (and got…

While I offer no opinion about whether vaccinations should be compulsory, it must be stated that if they should , it certainly isn't because of your argument about pure democracy. In a pure democracy, 90% of the population can choose to oppress the other 10%, and they have, many, many times throughout history. If vaccinations should be made mandatory in a free society, it is solely due to the externality imposed by t…

Sure, but the two qualities:

- 70% of population vaccinated

- and ICU beds clogging up because of unvaccinated

don't have to be considered separately. Instead, they are nice facts for making an informed decision about what to do next.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#923

Post by mmcnl » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 8:59 AM UTC

marton78 wrote: post #126

crooked-v wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With exponential spread, the actual number of ICU beds really doesn't matter, because whatever you've got will be overwhelmed across a similar timeframe anyway. The only way to actually fix the problem is to get the R-value below 1, which requires mass vaccinations.

The spectre of exponential spread is summoned way too often. Yes, an epidemic spreads exponentially when it starts, but also it's self limiting after a while. The 4th wave is wearing of already. Every wave so far has worn off in every country, with our without measures. As a recent example, compare Latvia and Estonia in the past few months. The former imposed strict measures, while the latter didn't, and yet the two…

There is some self-limiting, but this limit is way above 1x/2x/3x ICU capacity currently.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#924

Post by timdaub » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 9:01 AM UTC

ericd wrote: post #456

timdaub wrote: post #369

I find it ironic that there are plenty comments that paint the picture of how mandatory vaccinations divide the country. Hello? Have you been awake for the last month? How much more divided can a country already be when the absolute democratic majority has made their decision months ago to take the shot but 30% are holding everyone back. Anyone in my family or from my friends that has taken one for the team (and got…

Well, there's always civil war. That'd be a bit more divided. We should probably try going in the opposite direction, which usually involves less trying to impose our wills on each other.

"War" is a pretty strong terminology for the civil discourse currently happening.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#925

Post by timdaub » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 9:02 AM UTC

elvis10ten wrote: post #463

timdaub wrote: post #369

I find it ironic that there are plenty comments that paint the picture of how mandatory vaccinations divide the country. Hello? Have you been awake for the last month? How much more divided can a country already be when the absolute democratic majority has made their decision months ago to take the shot but 30% are holding everyone back. Anyone in my family or from my friends that has taken one for the team (and got…

Not everybody who hasn’t taken the vaccine is an antivaxxer. I think a distinction needs to be made between anti vaxxers and people who are just naive/“dumb”. I have seen more of the later group. Which is why I’m surprised when someone here or in mainstream media says this has anything to do with a political side. This distinction is useful IMO in creating sound policies.

Dunno if I agree. It's like being in the stock market. Talk is cheap and so actions carry way more signal.

It's a stronger statement to be vacccinated than to argue online for vaccinations.

And it's a stronger statement to not be vaccinated than to argue online against vaccinations.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#926

Post by blub » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 9:03 AM UTC

ikrenji wrote: post #678

nzk wrote: post #527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's not the goal. The goal is also not to split society in two and create a group that'll hate everyone forever, just because our leaders can't own up to their mistakes. The goal is to get through the pandemic best we can, and keeping societal values and principals intact should be an important part of that.

what values? half the population doesn't value science, rationality, wisdom, progress etc. I don't wanna be governed by science deniers. I also don't wanna spend years in lockdown because people are refusing to get pricked by a needle

Assuming you’re in Germany, you’re governed by people which managed to screw up every single aspect of handling this pandemic. From masks don’t work, to masks availability in healthcare, vaccine availability, to booster availability to making tests fee-based and much much more.

The health minister was throttling Biontech/Pfizer deliveries just as demand started to go up for crying out loud!

It could always be worse, but I’m not at all surprised about lack of trust in the government.

You will spend years in lockdowns because that’s the only thing they’re capable of. See Portugal or Denmark for the vaccination happy case. Better than Germany but nowhere near life-as-usual.

Finally, if half the population doesn’t value all those things… Germany is proper fucked. You're exaggerating by a lot, which tells me you don’t value science and rationality.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#927

Post by TheRealNGenius » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 9:05 AM UTC

kingcharles wrote: post #742

xdennis wrote: post #571

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your logic is insane. There are countries were a majority agrees with female/male circumcision. I guess you'd be the first to go slashing at people's genitals because the minority is holding everyone back.

I hadn't thought about this, but I bet a majority of the people in the USA refusing vaccinations are totally fine about mutilating their male babies by slicing off chunks of their penis.

classic symptom of doublethink - holding contradictory beliefs whenever they suit you without regard for self-consistency

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#928

Post by rich_sasha » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 9:09 AM UTC

TheRealNGenius wrote: post #880

rich_sasha wrote: post #537

Is it, to some extent, a problem of naming and terminology? When vaccines were first introduced in the UK, there was a great deal of discussion about ethics of forcing people to get them. One really cool view was, of course you can’t force people to inject a chemical into their bodies. But if people choose not to get vaccinated, it’s on them to reduce the risk to others - ie basically subject themselves to lockdown.…

would a mask suffice? or how about staying 6ft apart?

So without getting into the weeds of it, I don’t think these offer as much protection as just staying away from people, not going to restaurants, cinemas etc. You’re also risking drawing more resources out of hospitals. UK has free general healthcare, but eg a health insurer would charge you more if you’re a smoker.

While I sympathise with people who refuse vaccines on grounds of free choice, the question stands: what are you doing instead to protect me?

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#929

Post by nicbou » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 9:13 AM UTC

errantmind wrote: post #850

Jansen312 wrote: post #818

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue here is really cost to public. Non vaccinated has high chance to get severe complication when infected. They will utilize hospitals and healthcare whether public or private. For private, we can choose to ignore as the price will adjust by themselves to determine who lives and who dies. Nobody will bat an eye if a high-end boutique clinic let a poor Covid patient dies because bed and ventilator is too expens…

Sure, as long as people who eat excessively, smoke cigarettes, drink alcohol, etc. also sign away their healthcare. Why should we enable their bad decisions?

Those things don't infect others.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#930

Post by TheRealNGenius » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 9:16 AM UTC

rich_sasha wrote: post #928

TheRealNGenius wrote: post #880

Earlier quoted context omitted.

would a mask suffice? or how about staying 6ft apart?

So without getting into the weeds of it, I don’t think these offer as much protection as just staying away from people, not going to restaurants, cinemas etc. You’re also risking drawing more resources out of hospitals. UK has free general healthcare, but eg a health insurer would charge you more if you’re a smoker. While I sympathise with people who refuse vaccines on grounds of free choice, the question stands: wha…

Nothing. I shouldn't need to do anything to protect you. You are but a stranger, as are most people in the world. And quite frankly, I don't care about you. Nor you, I would assume, I. Outside of this conversation, we will likely never meet.

So long as I am not actively trying to harm you, I would think that would suffice. I hope you too don't burden yourself with protecting each and every being you see on the streets. So long as you've bestowed yourself protection conferred by the vaccine, I see no reason for you to go out of your way to jab a dose of Pfizer at each unvaccinated individual you encounter.