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Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

cnn.com

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Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#891

Post by disambiguation »

rich_sasha wrote: post #537

Is it, to some extent, a problem of naming and terminology? When vaccines were first introduced in the UK, there was a great deal of discussion about ethics of forcing people to get them. One really cool view was, of course you can’t force people to inject a chemical into their bodies. But if people choose not to get vaccinated, it’s on them to reduce the risk to others - ie basically subject themselves to lockdown.…

I believe they tried that, they didn't get their desired results, and now we are caught up to current events.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#892

Post by disambiguation »

wolverine876 wrote: post #119

I would be very happy if my government did the same. What a relief it would be! It's a public health measure, like public sanitation requirements, and driving a car that meets safety requirements. Unvaccinated people should be free to do whatever they want, short of risking infecting other people. Your freedom ends where your fist ends and my nose begins.

> Your freedom ends where your fist ends and my nose begins.

I know where your nose is. I don't know where this pandemic ends. Can you give a clear and fair number? Obviously people will never fully stop getting sick, but how low exactly before we're content?

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#893

Post by marton78 »

cqadt wrote: post #744
jashmatthews wrote: post #732

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Germany, the majority of the cases are from unvaccinated people getting sick and infecting other people https://rocs.hu-berlin.de/publication/maier-2021-germany/

That is one paper from a couple of postdocs.

As are pretty much all papers ever written

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#894

Post by marton78 »

Auracle wrote: post #109
wjnc wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counter argument: Medical personel is hard to find and expensive, as is IC infrastructure. Why would we've needed to keep spare IC capacity for decades only to find out we need it in case of a pandemic? The German argument could be re-constructed into an argument that any country will run into IC shortages regardless of the level of IC availability. In an exponential curve it's only three or four cycles (8-12 days?)…

You can’t throw a stone without hitting a nurse in the US, but I’m guessing they’re paid far better here as well just as doctors are. I know Germany has a mixed system but it seems to me that socialized medicine keeping costs down slowly erodes care. The increase in costs in the US is also unsustainable. There might be a happy medium in there but it might be too early to tell.

This is accurate. The socialized health care system in Germany worked fine for multiple decades, until a few years ago our government decided to reimburse hospitals not based on days a patient spends there (which created perverse incentives, agreed) but rather based on diagnosis. So, a hospital earns X euros for every patient with condition X, creating other perverse incentives, and resulting in less money for the hospitals, which of course trickled down to nurses.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#895

Post by raxxorrax »

nzk wrote: post #47

What we're seeing here is one of the wealthiest countries in the world with a population of > 80M people crumbling over a few thousand ICU patients because of long-standing issues that were never addressed. The staffing problems in hospitals (and nursing homes) have existed much longer than Covid. I heard a lot about them myself when I did my FSJ (volunteer work) back in 2004, and it's only gotten worse since then. O…

The egregious part is that they reduced ICU beds last summer, they even had monetary incentives to reduce them.

Meanwhile vaccinating anyone But people here are afraid (typical) and even demand harsher policies. They also seem incapable to hold political leaders to account. Politics basically failed to prepare for the next wave, which was known to be happening quite a long while ago. Instead we had an embarrassing slap-fight between different states. One more stupid than the other.

Also you cannot just get a vaccine, you have to actively search for places that administer them. Pretty sure that I won't renew mine again, since this is just not acceptable.

I would advise you to ask a doctor, even if those aren't too keen to get another patient with vaccine trouble, but getting a vaccine in an active wave might not be the best health recommendation.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#896

Post by sazz »

German government argues that health-care cannot handle all those patients due to shortage of health care personal.

In the same moment they are going to remove 10.000+ health care workers on January 1st from their jobs because they are unvaccinated.

Everybody knows that vaccination cannot prevent transmission of the virus.

That's the "new" german logic.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#897

Post by TheRealNGenius »

dewert wrote: post #218
aarobot wrote: post #151

If you don't wear a life jacket someone else will drown..

Yes, because you're all tied together for some reason? Really, this analogy is too much of a stretch to be meaningful.

No no, it's because you're all in the same boat...

It's your choice to bring a life jacket or not. You know that you risk drowning if you don't bring one, but you also know that the risk is low for where you are going, are allergic to the material that PFDs (personal floatation devices) are made of, think you know better because you can swim, or have some other ideological reason for not wearing one.

But on this day, your little crew encounter some unexpected rapids that cause your boat to capsize. One person was a guide who knows how to treat this, and quickly gets as many people as they can onto the flipped boat. Despite this, there isn't enough room on the upside down boat for everyone to fit, so some people are left grabbing the edges of the boat.

Those who can hold on survive, as do many with life vests and those on the boat. Unfortunately, since the boat was so small and the rapids so strong, some were swept away - some with life vests and others without - never to be seen again. The rapids eventually calm down and you are able to flip the boat right-side up again. Now, you are joined by another boat coming in from another river that didn't experience the same rapids as you did.

Now, a few of the life jacket wearers are pointing fingers saying that those who didn't wear life jackets "effectively killed" those who wore life jackets but didn't make it. Since by not wearing lifejackets, they "took up too much room" on the boat and weren't contributing their fair share for the greater good and survival of everyone. The other side counters by reasoning that this is theory-crafting much like how pundits argue that Jack could have fit onto the wooden plank alongside Rose from Titanic if they shifted their bodies in the right way. Even though the acclaimed director JAMES CAMERON says that Jack was going to die anyways.

When in reality, no one was to blame except for the natural cause that was the rapids. All the while, life jacket manufacturers line their pockets with money from the increased sale of life jackets.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#898

Post by carlmr »

raxxorrax wrote: post #895
nzk wrote: post #47

What we're seeing here is one of the wealthiest countries in the world with a population of > 80M people crumbling over a few thousand ICU patients because of long-standing issues that were never addressed. The staffing problems in hospitals (and nursing homes) have existed much longer than Covid. I heard a lot about them myself when I did my FSJ (volunteer work) back in 2004, and it's only gotten worse since then. O…

The egregious part is that they reduced ICU beds last summer, they even had monetary incentives to reduce them. Meanwhile vaccinating anyone But people here are afraid (typical) and even demand harsher policies. They also seem incapable to hold political leaders to account. Politics basically failed to prepare for the next wave, which was known to be happening quite a long while ago. Instead we had an embarrassing sl…

>Also you cannot just get a vaccine, you have to actively search for places that administer them. Pretty sure that I won't renew mine again, since this is just not acceptable.

Very true, last month for the booster there was only one place in Stuttgart (large city for German standards) offering appointments within the year. It's gotten better again, but it's not like they didn't know that there would be a new wave of vaccinations once the first people are 6 months in (or had J&J).

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#899

Post by raxxorrax »

oezi wrote: post #486
fileeditview wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So true and not mentioned enough by the media. The fact that we lost more than 4000 ICU beds over last year (during the Corona pandemic!!) because of personnel shortage is mind-boggling. Instead of rewarding those who worked these horrible jobs and maybe attract new workers with better conditions (e.g. more holidays), better pay or tax reduction, our politicians did campaigning and ignored the upcoming winter. Now th…

It is mentioned enough by the media. Thank you. But it seems strange to realize that people don't want to do a job where you have to watch people die like flies over the course of two to three weeks. No money in the world makes that acceptable for many. With the availability of the vaccines (at least in the developed world) this has become a pandemic of the uninformed know-it-alls ("Querdenker" = Crooked thinker, as…

This is seeking someone to blame honestly, those "Querdenker" didn't influence anything else but themselves. The truth is we always had a form of triage in emergency admission rooms even before the pandemic.

Media and politics are way more responsible than the craziest idiot.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#900

Post by Klemotio »

raxxorrax wrote: post #895
nzk wrote: post #47

What we're seeing here is one of the wealthiest countries in the world with a population of > 80M people crumbling over a few thousand ICU patients because of long-standing issues that were never addressed. The staffing problems in hospitals (and nursing homes) have existed much longer than Covid. I heard a lot about them myself when I did my FSJ (volunteer work) back in 2004, and it's only gotten worse since then. O…

The egregious part is that they reduced ICU beds last summer, they even had monetary incentives to reduce them. Meanwhile vaccinating anyone But people here are afraid (typical) and even demand harsher policies. They also seem incapable to hold political leaders to account. Politics basically failed to prepare for the next wave, which was known to be happening quite a long while ago. Instead we had an embarrassing sl…

Sooo any proof for your thoughts on the missing benefits of a vaccinated person u der 60?

Wild statement to make without any numbers.

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