Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory • Hacker News Board

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#541

Post by pietjepuk88 » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 10:52 PM UTC

throwaway47292 wrote: post #409

pietjepuk88 wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they shouldn't be forced I was under the impression that you'd just get fined if you don't get your shot. It's not like they are going to take you prisoner and stick a needle in you.

Until when? when the next wave comes and the unvaccinated are 40% instead of 30%, do you think they wont start forcing the needle? How many people would get the booster? and the next booster after that? I think its reasonable to assume that every 6 months the unvaccinated group with grow with 5% or so, how long until they become more than the vaccinated? What will happen when they elect the new government in 2 years

I'm not sure what you mean by "until when?".

> do you think they wont start forcing the needle?

The article is about _fining_ people, i.e. negative monetary incentives. Your reply outlined a bunch of positive monetary incentives. There's probably enough research out there which of the two works better (negative or positive), so I won't get into that. I will say that I think it's quite a stretch to say that either is a step-up to "forcing a needle in you", and that I find it a bit disingenuous to imply that this slippery-slope argument only applies to negative monetary incentives.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#542

Post by guscost » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 10:52 PM UTC

op00to wrote: post #533

chippy wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its worth remembering that division is due to the other side always . This is an absolute statement as division is literally caused by dividing between "sides". You get a divided country when the people within it divides each other into sides. Its never been the case when people have said "our side has caused the division". never. That is the irony you should be finding! If you do finally see this irony you might fin…

No, vaccinations are how we get out and people who are medically able to get them and don’t are hurting each and every human on this planet due to their own hubris.

Want a war? That’s all you’re going to get if you persist with this paranoid hypochondriac fascism.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#543

Post by MaxHoppersGhost » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 10:52 PM UTC

johnteller wrote: post #490

I'd be more open to getting vaccinated when I see people actively making use of hand sanitizers in stores. When people learn to cover their whole faces with their masks. When they learn to keep distance. Vaccinated people who are old, sick or born with bad luck in the genetic lottery are still at risk. Vaccination doesn't mean people can go back to doing whatever they want. The vaccination itself can be a risk to cer…

Hand sanitizer? We’ve know for over a year now that hand sanitizer does nothing against covid because that’s not how it spreads.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#544

Post by floren » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 10:52 PM UTC

rrrrrrrrrrrryan wrote: post #495

whiddershins wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the most salient thing about rights is that the majority isn't permitted take them away whenever it suits them.

Access to healthcare is considered a right in Germany. They're mandating vaccines so that they can continue to provide all their citizens with this human right. Sometimes rights clash, which is why you can't yell "fire" in a crowded theater despite having the right to freedom of speech. An individual's right to do X on principle can absolutely be overruled by the right for a larger group of people to continue living…

> Sometimes rights clash, which is why you can't yell "fire" in a crowded theater despite having the right to freedom of speech.

The decision about yelling fire in a crowded theater originates from Schenck v. United States, in which the Supreme Court decided it's OK for the US Government to suppress anti-draft protests; consider if you wish to build arguments on this foundation.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#545

Post by timdaub » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 10:53 PM UTC

cblconfederate wrote: post #440

timdaub wrote: post #369

I find it ironic that there are plenty comments that paint the picture of how mandatory vaccinations divide the country. Hello? Have you been awake for the last month? How much more divided can a country already be when the absolute democratic majority has made their decision months ago to take the shot but 30% are holding everyone back. Anyone in my family or from my friends that has taken one for the team (and got…

> the absolute democratic majority has made their decision months ago to take the shot but 30% are holding everyone back Were people really asked to cast their vote by vaccinating themselves?

no. That was a rethorical device I used in my comment.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#546

Post by roywiggins » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 10:53 PM UTC

IG_Semmelweiss wrote: post #531

I think the biggest unsung problems in this saga, is actually one of marketing. The average person has experience with vaccines that have 3 properties: (1) long lasting, (2) prevent contagion (3) and major symptoms. By calling the mRNA shot a vaccine , the WHO and CDC transferred such properties to the shot. That may have been great for encouraging adoption, but also comes with consequences particularly if two vaccin…

The flu shot needs to be updated yearly, and it mostly prevents hospitalizations and deaths. Seems pretty similar.

The flu vaccine is about 70% effective against getting flu[0], but it varies wildly by year. The Pfizer mRNA vaccine is about 50% effective against catching COVID five months later[1] (for the delta variant, anyway), but the third dose seems to push that up substantially.

[0] https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/how-effective-is-flu-vaccine

[1] https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#547

Post by jseban » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 10:53 PM UTC

throwawaysea wrote: post #519

worik wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that everybody should get vaccinated. Let's make this virus extinct. But what you describe is majoritarianism. It is a form of democracy but a very weak form. For a lot of people, who are from minority groups, it is indistinguishable from totalitarianism. Why do 30% of people refuse to get vaccinated? (here in Aotearoa it is 5%). Something is happening, people are getting left behind, in vast numbers. Forcing…

It's a tyranny of the majority: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority I simply don't understand why one person needs to undergo a medical procedure to enable someone else to experience the safe conditions they want. These vaccines don't even grant immunity in the traditional sense (see CDC's revision of definitions here) - all the vaccines do is move things from one nonzero probability of risk to anot…

> I simply don't understand why one person needs to undergo a medical procedure to enable someone else to experience the safe conditions they want.

Me neither, I think it's completely unreasonable.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#548

Post by crooked-v » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 10:54 PM UTC

IG_Semmelweiss wrote: post #531

I think the biggest unsung problems in this saga, is actually one of marketing. The average person has experience with vaccines that have 3 properties: (1) long lasting, (2) prevent contagion (3) and major symptoms. By calling the mRNA shot a vaccine , the WHO and CDC transferred such properties to the shot. That may have been great for encouraging adoption, but also comes with consequences particularly if two vaccin…

Regarding 2 and 3, it feels like a major factor here is the huge number of people who have forgotten (or never knew) that vaccines as a category aren't automatically 100% effective, because all the hard work to wipe out diseases like measles from the general population has already been done.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#549

Post by skeeter2020 » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 10:54 PM UTC

throwawaysea wrote: post #519

worik wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that everybody should get vaccinated. Let's make this virus extinct. But what you describe is majoritarianism. It is a form of democracy but a very weak form. For a lot of people, who are from minority groups, it is indistinguishable from totalitarianism. Why do 30% of people refuse to get vaccinated? (here in Aotearoa it is 5%). Something is happening, people are getting left behind, in vast numbers. Forcing…

It's a tyranny of the majority: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority I simply don't understand why one person needs to undergo a medical procedure to enable someone else to experience the safe conditions they want. These vaccines don't even grant immunity in the traditional sense (see CDC's revision of definitions here) - all the vaccines do is move things from one nonzero probability of risk to anot…

>> But requiring others to get a vaccine to attain some arbitrary risk ratio just doesn't make sense.

Uhm, we do this all the time: licensing, seat belts, etc. Welcome to modern society.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#550

Post by frenchyatwork » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 10:54 PM UTC

whiddershins wrote: post #455

timdaub wrote: post #369

I find it ironic that there are plenty comments that paint the picture of how mandatory vaccinations divide the country. Hello? Have you been awake for the last month? How much more divided can a country already be when the absolute democratic majority has made their decision months ago to take the shot but 30% are holding everyone back. Anyone in my family or from my friends that has taken one for the team (and got…

One of the most salient thing about rights is that the majority isn't permitted take them away whenever it suits them.

One of the most salient thing about rights is that people constantly disagree about them and they often disagree with each other. For example

* My right to speak freely and say cruel things vs the right of someone else to live a peaceful life free of terror.

* The right of a privacy for a politician vs the right of the pubic to know about their character & personal life.

* The right of a capitalist to buy out all the competition vs the right of the consumer to have choice.